Archive of the Special Education Message Board Folder: Speech Language Disorders - 2 June 23, 1997 - November 28, 1997 FILE NAME: splang03.txt 450 message - 122 Pages SUBJECT: Re: outside opinions Date: 97-06-23 14:23:24 EST From: ShelleyHL Ours is small school. The principal sits in on all Planning and Placement Team meetings. She is VERY interested in the ongoing programs in our school and how well they integrate with one another. She is PART of the educational team for all children receiving special services. I realize that this is not the case in all schools, but it works well in ours. She listens to the teachers, specialists, parents, and outside evaluators. She is very sensitive to all parties. So, in our school, it really wouldn't matter if a parent went to the administrator, because she would simply say, "Let's call a team meeting." And in my opinion that is the way it should be. When there are educational concerns on anyone's parts they need to be formally discussed at a Planning and Placement Team table where decisions can be made, programs changed, recommendations made. We too consider outside evaluator's recommendations but we consider them as part of a whole picture. In some cases, an outside therapist makes a recommendation not knowing the total program the child is receiving. For example, we had a recommendation for oral motor work which I (the speech path) and the occupational therapist were aleady doing together. Sometimes the problem with the outside opinions is that that person doesn't have the whole picture, they only have information about the discipline for which they evaluate. If all they are asked to look at is speech language and are only given info about speech language, they might not know that the child is receiving OT, resource or other special education assistance or any other supplemental program. It's unfair to the outside evaluator to be in that position, but it does happen. We recently had a situation where a parent hand carried reports to a neurologist, but never took the psychological. The 1st recommendation was that a full psych be done. It wasn't the neurologist's fault that he didn't know that it had already (and recently) been done. ShelleyHL SUBJECT: Re: outside opinions Date: 97-06-23 21:04:12 EST From: VBSSLP It amazes me that parents are generally ready to accept anything a "private" SLP says lock, stock, and barrel, always assuming that their advice is better because they paid for it. It may be and it may not be, but superior expertise is assumed in the private sector by parents. Sometimes it seems as if it's a 'them' and 'us' situation and that is unfortunate. Parents and professionals both need to remember that 'private' means there are different criteria, private practice is a business, school SLP's are almost always between a rock and hard place (best practices, 'adequate' vs optimal, REALITY of large caseloads....). There are excellent SLP's in private and public sector BOTH, and there are advantages and disadvantages to working and receiving services in both as well. SUBJECT: Re: outside opinions Date: 97-06-23 21:07:09 EST From: VBSSLP You are so right!! SUBJECT: hot topics in our school Date: 97-06-23 21:26:42 EST From: MareCash Here's a new one. In many schools unfortunatley htere is somewhat of a division between classroom teachers and special area teachers. Us special area teachers( speech, resource, ESL, Reading) just go hit with a good one today. Apparently the classrom teachers are a bit upset about the cancellation of classes by special area teachers ( in my opinion they are just envious of us for some reason). The end of the year as we all know is filled with annual evaluations and CSE meetings. We all are required to attend these meetings and haev to cancel classes to do it. (Our classroom teachers onthe other hand get subs in thier rooms to attend CSE , and also we haev to schedule CSE meetings around their schedules, because they can't lose their prep time to attend meeitngs). So, today we get a notice in our mailboxes that the teachers have requested that all the special area teachers must get written confirmation form the principal if we are to cancel classes. Now, whenever I cancel a class for any reason I always put a note in the principals box so she knows why. The problem here is this. We feel that this is a two way street, Then any time the classrom teachers do not chose to send the students to our areas, they should do the same. We have a big meeting about this tomorrow. Even worse is that these teachers went through our schools union liason committee for this, and this committee went to the principal to recommend it. So much for union representation! How do other school districts handle this? Isn't this silly that professionals cannot trust each other? We are trying to explain that we often come to get children for speech and the class will be gone, so therefore if they are going to gothrough with this , we deserve the same respect. SUBJECT: Re: medical vs. educational Date: 97-06-23 23:03:26 EST From: Kaseyy I'm not a speech therapist, but am a music therapist. I wanted to share an idea from our professional local meetings with other music therapists. We, too, have had the problem of outside music therapists recommending levels of therapy that the school should provide--that were not educationally necessary. We chose to have several local meetings with our group on the topic, inviting both school and private therapists. We had extensive discussions on this topic, and it has helped both sides understand better what their roles our-whether in the schools, or working privately. Just a thought. SUBJECT: Re: medical vs. educational Date: 97-06-24 07:47:22 EST From: Roskzalex Music Therapist: I think yours is a valuable field! I use a lot of music with my speech/language kids. It is surprising how much it helps them to learn! I'd like to know more techniques in the music therapy area that would compliment my speech therapy in the schools. ---Robyn SUBJECT: Re: outside opinions Date: 97-06-24 07:52:56 EST From: Ratatat < Clinical therapy and educationally relevent therapy are often very different things.> I'm reading this thread on speech therapy, and it's so interesing. If I may contribute, I think that this statement is the core of the issue. Services under Special Education (IDEA) are supposed to be about educational programming. It's appropriate that, in school, the SLP will develop a program around those areas that impact the child's ability to learn, and express what she/he knows. That's appropriate. The private SLP is looking at things from a different perscpective, thus possibly recommending a slightly different program of therapy for a child. What it really seems to boil down to is that some of these kids need clinical speech therapy in additional to educational speech therapy. Besides, I wonder if the clinical SLPs and the educational SLPs might not frame some of the same assessments in different terms. I'm thinking that the problem might be that rather than "them" against "us." It's more about two paralell view points, not two opposing viewpoints. Make sense? SUBJECT: Re:hot topics in our school Date: 97-06-24 07:54:51 EST From: Ratatat Sounds like a lot of energy being expended over this one. Too bad that everyone can't look at the problems objectively and problem-solve, creatively, together. SUBJECT: SLP Chat Date: 97-06-24 08:14:43 EST From: Ratatat Just thought I'd let you all know about a SLP chat that's new on AOL. NEW TIME & LOCATION! Monday 10 p.m. ET (22:00) Speech and Language Related Disorders Mutual Support Co-Facilitators: RMacl49796 & Gina Mikel Room: Mutual Support Lounge Keyword: dis - Chat Rooms button SUBJECT: Re:outside opinions Date: 97-06-24 08:20:39 EST From: ShelleyHL You are so right. Many parents feel that the therapist at the clinic or hospital has different credentials. In our area that is just not the case. I have had parents ask me about my credentials and they were very surprised that I had my CCC, state licensing, state board of education certification, 23 years of experience, and, school based as well as clinical experience. The clinic therapists sometimes had their C's and state licensing but less experience and most of it clinic based. Where I live, many of the therapists working at clinics, doing school aged assessment,are doing so to get experience. Of course that is not the case for all of them. Some have never worked in the schools because jobs are not readily available here. Many work part time, or per diem for a variety of reasons, situations which are not easily accommodated in a public school job. Lots of those private folks move into public school jobs when they become available. I actually had one therapist tell me how her perspective changed when she took a school job. She said that she wished she had had that perspective while working privately. Oh well...ShelleyHL SUBJECT: What's Normal ?? Date: 97-06-24 12:51:25 EST From: SBTaylor4 Our 5 yr old daughter doesn't always pronounce words distinctly and has problems particularly with the "s" sound (snake comes out nake for example). When she says her last name it sounds more like Tater instead of Taylor sometimes. I've tried to work with her some. Often she crosses herarms and refuses tocooperate. Now my husband has accused me ofnot trying hardenough and told meto get herin speech therapy soon as possible sokids inher kindergarten(starts in August) won't make fun ofher. Well, I can't get even an evaluationanywhere until July 23rd!!! Help! Anyone know of a tape or something that canhelpme??? SusanT. SUBJECT: Re:hot topics in our school Date: 97-06-24 14:10:45 EST From: Lmazzola <> It's no wonder parents are having difficulty getting appropriate services for their kids - the teachers can't even work together. I'm not "bashing" this poster, but merely making an observation, based upon what she said AND my own experience with this very situation. There does not seem to be any "common goal." Everyone is looking out for themselves or the bottom line. In the mean time, all this time, energy and money is being wasted and the kids are not getting the services that they need. And if a parent tries to "look into" the situation i.e. ask questions, observe the program, etc. or heaven forbid - question the appropriateness of the program - they are labeled a trouble maker. IMHO. SUBJECT: Re: outside opinions Date: 97-06-24 16:19:04 EST From: VBSSLP Parents may sometimes come away from either the clinical or school based SLP not completely understanding what their recommendations are as well. I don't always think that is the SLP's fault. Many times people hear suggestions out of context from the big picture that is being presented, especially if it suggests that they haven't 'gotten enough' or received whatever. Also, hindsight is 20/20-'This child should have been receiving_____therapy etc..." SUBJECT: Re: outside opinions Date: 97-06-24 19:05:00 EST From: DaysOfPooh Ratatat , Youre last post about clinical speech therapy and educationally relevant therapy posed some very interesting ideas . My question however is , where do we draw a line as to what is considered educationally relevant ? Our daughter is 6 with a severe speech disorder and receives speech tx 5 times a week in school . ( bless her SLP ) But how is it determined what is educationally relevant ? What exactly is the definition of educationally relevant therapy or is that something left to be interpreted by each individual or school district ? ( Honestly I dont know and would like to ! ) Clinical speech therapists have said our daughter needed tx 2x's a week but her school therapist felt 5 times was more like it and I will not argue with her !! : ) The first school SLP that worked with our daughter in Preschool seemed to her problems were no big deal , thankfully after being with a new SLP in kindergarten ,this SLP saw that our daughters speech affected her whole day at school as our daughter would not speak to anyone except the SLP , thus came the recommendation of 5x a week . I have the utmost respect for our SLP and would not question her recommendations for the most part and if I did , I know she is more than willing to sit down and talk . I would trust her more than I would trust someone who just met my daughter , tested her and made recommendations . Could someone explain the difference between educationally relevant therapy and clinical therapy for me , I guess I thought the goals of the two would be the same . Thankyou Nancy SUBJECT: Re: educationally relevant Date: 97-06-24 19:20:00 EST From: ShelleyHL Educationally relevant services are those which will make learning and progress at school appropriate for a child. For example, a child who is having difficulty learning new concepts, stating ideas or the like would probably have difficulty expressing and learning what is taught in the classroom. Likewise, a child with unintelligible speech would have difficulty making themselves understood. In addition, both groups *might* have difficulty learning to read and write easily. Clinically relevant might be a child who has oral motor (mouth movement) difficulties but has fine speech (I've seen that..). That child might have difficulty eating, but if speaking is fine the problem might not relate to learning. Children with vocal nodules or other physiological or medical conditions might need speech services but not educational services because they are doing well in school. As a school based SLP, I always am asked to tell how a problem affects a child's learning, or has the potential to affect learning (e.g. preschoolers who have multiple misarticulations). When learning is affected I am expected to provide unified services with the classroom teachers, special education teachers and anyone else who will be working with the child. There are a number of touchy situations. Tongue thrust is one...Is that an educational issue or a medical (or orthodontic) one? In our school district we will provide a home program and monitor exercises for a short period for this. Voice problems are another...medical or not? Stuttering...??? I have worked with stutterers who were National Merit Scholars. Is that educationally relevant? It's confusing and the justifications for services vary. Remember too that clinical folks ONLY see the students for therapy, not in a classroom setting. If I were working in a clinic I would certainly want to see a child more than twice a week. However, in my school, the reality is the team members are working with the child 30 hours a week. We try to incorporate our individual goals into everyday situations. That's what life and learning are all about. ShelleyHL SUBJECT: Re: outside opinions Date: 97-06-24 20:33:55 EST From: TLVAIL You're right- the views may be parallel and a child may need both clinical and educational therapy- The problem, as I see it, is that sometimes parents expect clinical therapy in a school setting and that is sometimes because a "clinical" therapist has told them it is what a child "needs". I am a private practitioner who contracts with the schools so I see both sides of the issue. What I would suggest is that if a parent comes in and requests that a private practioner write a report saying a child "needs" anything in particular, that private therapist should offer to join the parent at the next staffing and serve as a member of the team. I think our role as SLPs in the schools must stay educationally relevent which sometimes (not always) requires a shift from the traditional, clinical model. SUBJECT: In/out school Date: 97-06-25 05:57:04 EST From: ShelleyHL Yesterday I read an Associated Press article that stated that the Supreme Court had overruled an 1985 decision with regard to the provision of remedial services in parocial schools. In 1985 it was determined that remedial services (the article specifically referred to Title I) could not be provided IN parochial schools. Now it seems that those services can be provided in parochial schools. As an public school SLP who worked in parochial schools prior to 1985, I know that this ruling was extended to special services and wonder if the new ruling will apply to special services or is confined to Title I services which are not special education services. Does anyone know? ShelleyHL SUBJECT: Re:In/out school Date: 97-06-25 15:35:09 EST From: MareCash I have no idea about the answe rto Shelly's question, but would be interested in the answer. We haev a little girl headed for Kindergarten next year - she has Down's Syndrome and gets Speech, OT,PT, and will qualify for resource room. The parochial school her parents want do not haev any of this. Does this mean we will have to provide the services. I'd like to hear about your experience with this in the past Shelley. I can;t imagine, with a caseload of 77, how I will find time to travel. More upsetiing will be the splintered nature of this little gal's rpogram. All these people coming in and out, and no one with special ed experience with her all day. SUBJECT: Re:word endings Date: 97-06-25 16:26:24 EST From: MirlaG <> There are a couple of reasons your son's speech deteriorates. First, it doesn't sound like your son had fully integrated the sounds into his conversational speech. If he hasn't he will forget to use them when he is emotionally charged. Second, his rate of speech may increase when he is excited or upset so that he has a hard time articulating. As a result consonants are dropped, especially ending consonants. I would continue to work on integrating the target sounds into your sons conversational speech. I would not add any more sounds until he uses the target sounds all the time. SUBJECT: Re:outside opinions Date: 97-06-25 16:58:43 EST From: MirlaG There are many of us in private practice who switched out of the public school setting because we knew we could do more for children. I have no one telling me how many contact hours I must meet each week. Therefore, I do not have to see 2,3, or 4 children together thereby diluting therapy for each individual child. Children seen on an individual basis progress quicker . Also, as a private practioner parents are an important part of the therapeutic process. They are given homework for carryover and reinforcement. Many sit in on the sessions. Recommendations made by school systems are not always in the best interests of the child. Lack of funds is always an issue for the public schools and their educational decisions are motivated by money, money, money, or lack of. This goes for special education as well as regular services. Anyone who says otherwise is unfair to parents. I have two children in public schools and know that the education of children does not take precedence over money and politics. The concern about children ranks somewhere near the bottom. But I also know that school systems do a fairly decent job educating children. However, and I know I will get a lot of flack for saying this, but I would not rely solely on the public schools if my children needed additional help or resources. Mirla SUBJECT: Re:outside opinions Date: 97-06-25 18:20:41 EST From: TAWhit Mirla- I agree that SCHOOL SYSTEMS (as in finances and politics) are not always in the best interest of each individual child. But...most of the people who work with the children are. And I must disagree that children progress more quickly with individual therapy. Maybe some. There's something to be said for use of peers and natural environments. This is definitely a loaded issue and I will stop there. Terrie SUBJECT: Re:My 6 year old. Date: 97-06-25 19:15:06 EST From: WYOBSKT I have a delemma that I could use unbias opinion on. My son has static encephalopathy, and just turned 6 on the 22nd of june. I am in a school system that takes childre 0-4 in the Home based type program, then at 5 they must attend the public school system to receive services. I had moved from a preschool language based program that went from 0-6 year olds. What we did was go ahead and send him to the Kindergarten ISEC class (self-contained). there were 13 kids with varying degree of disabilities. My son's lies most significantly with language. He has a liberator and is taught some sign at school. Here is my delema, The "team" thought he was appropriate to attend regular ed 1st grade for 1/2 a day, then drop back to the ISEC room to receive his services for next year.. I do not feel he is 1'st grade material in anyway or fashion. My thought was that he needed a regular-ed kindrgarten experience before jumping into the 1st grade. They called it retention and they didn't like to do that to kids. I don't get it. Where is the retention. To go from the ISEC class where ther is constant disruptions from behavior problems to "meeting other kids' needs" (bless their hearts), into a class room of "typically developed" learners is going to be a step up. I felt we were really missing an important part of learning if he didn't experience that social, and lower academic field of learning before we sent him off to that 1st grade class room. I personally feel that he will be out of ISEC all together by his "real" first grade (98/99 school year.) I made the decision, after lots of prayer, to call another meeting and have him changed into that kindergarten class room. they can call it what they want but, there is no way i'd have even sent my typically developed son at such a young age to 1sst grade let alone my guy who has maybe 10 audible word in his vocab. Thanks for your opinion. Lambast me if its constructive please. I don't want to be one of those moms who wont let go. I just felt this was right. Am I missing something important that I just don't have the eucational background to know? SUBJECT: Re:My 6 year old. Date: 97-06-26 07:43:04 EST From: AV715 The fashionable theory lately is that noone should be kept back, since everyone develops at his own pace, and there will be varying degrees of maturity in every group. One principal said " we can handle them no matter where they are in maturity." Sure, but can THEY handle YOU, sir ? Sometimes I think they just want to avoid another year of educational expenses for your kid who costs a bit more to the system. You are right, by my lights, that your son could use more time and a more gradual transition. What could he possibly gain by being "hurried up ?" SUBJECT: Re:outside opinions Date: 97-06-26 07:54:46 EST From: ShelleyHL As a public school SLP, I, too, give carryover assignments to children to do at home. I also give carryover assignments to paraeducators and teachers to do at school. I have to tell you that the parents I work with usually do a great job doing the carryover work. But some don't. I had one instance years ago, a little tongue thrust guy, whose parents just couldn't do that work. In the summer, THEY chose to go to a private therapist at their own expense. They did the homework. They were paying $60 a session. I often wondered if they had been paying for their public school services through something other than tax dollars if they would have been more vested in their son's services. By the way, I knew the therapist and we were using the SAME program. I feel that private therapists are doing a good job providing the services that they provide to students. I particularly like the ones who at least get input from the schools and try to intergrate and work with us. Unfortunately, some just march to their own drummer and holistically that is not good for the child. It also pits professional against professional in a situation that needs cooperation. The child should always come first. And p.s. in some situations, individual therapy is NOT appropriate. When I teach pragmatics and social communication the child needs a group of kids, not just me. In the school, I have the option of choosing a classroom buddy to teach these skills. How does that happen in individual therapy? ShelleyHL SUBJECT: Re:What's Normal ?? Date: 97-06-26 07:59:16 EST From: Roskzalex It is usually much easier to have an outside person work with your child. But what you can do, is not make it seem like work. One idea I would try would be to just have her listen to 15 words that start with sp (for example). Don't have her repeat them, just listen. Point out to her that there is a tiny snake sound at the beginning. Then when you are setting the table, for example, when she says, "poon". You say "spoon" and suddenly get the brilliant idea that this is one of those special words. As you say the 's' part, draw your finger across your lips so the idea of a longer sound is not only audible, but visible to her. Then if she can say it, that can be a special word that she learned how to say. Do this type of activity for other s-blend sounds (st, sk, sw, sm, sn). Sometimes kids can get the hang of it by just having it pointed out to them in a more formal manner. For the /l/ sound in Taylor, well, that is harder, because it is in the middle and the tongue taps in the same place for /l/ as it does for /t/. That's probably why she says /tater/. Does she say /l/ at the beginning of words? If not, that would be a better place to start. After listening to a list of words (you can even think of them in the car while you're driving) then have her try to just put her tongue up and down inside of her mouth. You can play in front of the bathroom mirror and make all sorts of funny faces, including the tongue up and down (in a silent /l/). Laugh about it and have fun. Then sing her favorite song with la la la la la la...... If she doesn't get her tongue tip up, do it in front of the mirror- or just show her how you do it. If she is stubborn, after you show her, she may practice on her own, if she thinks it's fun enough. Those are just some very beginning, basic ideas. I have one question for you to think about. Does she seem to know if you say a word wrong? If you repeat a word the way she says it, does she protest, knowing it is wrong, or just accept it. If she protests, she can hear the difference, but not make it yet. If she doesn't hear the difference, then working on listening to lots of words that have that same sound in them may help her. Let her know what to listen to. Robyn SUBJECT: Re:outside opinions Date: 97-06-26 08:18:52 EST From: MareCash I agee with Sheley and Terry. I have worked in both school and clinical settings and they both have their own types of goals. In the clinical setting, individual attention was the mode of therapy. It was appropriate depending on the disability. In the school setting, the big push is for integration. There are some children on mycaseload who do get individual therapy, but for the most part it is small group. What better way to have children learn - from interaction with their peers whom they model. When I have a group working on the s sound, it is much more beneficial for the children as a whole to hear each other, the sound is more ingrained. Also, the goal is not for gaining language ina one-one setting - we want to transfer these skills to the classroom setting - group work is necessary. I also give homework, write quarterly progress reports, and encourage parent particiaption.Parents are welcome at any time to come to therapy. SUBJECT: Re:My 6 year old. Date: 97-06-26 08:36:18 EST From: Willsons I agree with your assessment and decision. I would ask questions. Try to get an clearer understanding of how/why the school arrived at their decision. Have they given you the complete picture? Is there a reason behind their decision that they are reluctant to verbalize? . . . or have they not really thought it through, and need their thinking redirected? SUBJECT: My 6 year old Date: 97-06-26 09:39:27 EST From: WYOBSKT Andy was split between Teachers during his K-ISEC class because of overcrowding. One was a transitional type teacher (not sure she enjoyed any aspect of the job) at the end of the year. The other haas been doing this same job for 5 or 6. She was one who was in disagreement untill I mention that even though Andy seemed socially prepared in the ISEC class, We don't know what he will be like in the regular class. (My fear is that if we expose him too abrubtly, he'll loose this beautiful sensitive, calm, & trusting disposition) She was "relieved" that it wasn't because I was afraid of the acedemics of the 1st grade for him). The person I had the most trouble getting through to was the principle. She may not sign the IEP (which is fine) because of the changes that I wanted. I have made the adjustment that my son will have trouble throughout his life, however I am still very anxious about his education as we are military and move every 3 years. Sending him to 1st grade before he is ready is realllly going to have a major impact on the next school he goes to. I'm just trying to keep his head above water (so to speak) Thanks for your replies. SUBJECT: Re:outside opinions Date: 97-06-27 14:58:49 EST From: MirlaG Terrie, Shelley, and Marianne, Thanks for your comments. I have to agree that when parents pay out of pocket they tend to more involved in their child's therapy. Although the majority of my clients pay out of pocket, I will on occasion accept third party payment. I have noticed that it is these parents who are the least involved in their children's therapy. Mirla SUBJECT: Re:job wanted -SLP's Date: 97-06-27 20:11:17 EST From: LYates SLP HI GEORGIA SLP Savannah-chatham county is a big district with a huge speech program. There is a college AASU that trains SLPs at the bachelor's level. You wouldn't have a problem searching for a job there, they need a few every year, and if you have your CCCs, then you will get the job over these AASU students. Their program, even masters, is not ASHA certified, yet!!. Good Luck. Also, try columbia county, near Augusta, or Effingham, Liberty, Bryan near Savannah. SUBJECT: Re:collaboration Date: 97-06-27 20:17:42 EST From: LYates SLP there is a great book for the SLP. Language Lessons in the classroom. I used it during teaching a learning disabled K-3 class 30 min. twice a week. The kids loved it, and I had fun too! Good Luck!!! SUBJECT: Re:Students in school speech Date: 97-06-28 00:01:34 EST From: WVV Hiker Interesting how some SLPs have switched from the school setting to the clinical/hospital/private practice - the "outside world". How does that help the children who receive services in the schools? Many of my students would not receive any help if not for the school setting. Some of the parents don't have insurance, are too concerned about working and keeping their jobs, and/or can't take off from work so much.... Sometimes a school SLP does more than Speech, but also acts as a caring adult (buys snack, barrettes needed for long hair, milk money.....and listens) to some students who need some attention not received at home. Money was the prime concern MirlaG stated....true for the administrators, BUT if a child needs something extra, and we, the team, write it into the IEP, then it becomes the responsibility of the district.... I have a code of ethics too, and do what is important for the child.....no, I don't want to waste money, but if something worthwhile is needed, then it is written down.... What a shame that SLPs feel the need to cut down another professional IN THE SAME FIELD, it would be great if we could collaborate for the benefit of the child :) , no matter where the child is seen for therapy! SUBJECT: Re:Students in school speech Date: 97-06-28 22:02:56 EST From: MareCash WWHiker got to the point. We school clinicians have so many facets to our jobs. This year I fought tooth and nail with administration to get a Dynamyte for one of my students. My administration balked at the price ($8,000.00) and wanted to try a different device. I really went to bat for my student because I care. We all know that in the many chosen careers out there, there aer some people who give their all, and others who do enough to just get by - no matter what their job setting happens to be. I think we should all be giving each other support. A better understanding of each other's role in the different settings is the key. SUBJECT: Re: NY school setting Date: 97-06-29 16:31:19 EST From: MsLaura195 As far as I know NY's guidelines are 65 per therapist, no more than 5 in a group. SUBJECT: Re: outside opinions Date: 97-06-30 01:59:32 EST From: Beanie7783 What I think Ratatat means is that there are different ways to reach the same result...."more" is not always "better". SUBJECT: Re:stuttering - help! Date: 97-06-30 20:18:27 EST From: WenPrater I am an slp in a preschool for special needs children most of my experience is in birth to five. I read your concerns about stuttering and I understand that much of your concern is revolved around the family life. I think it is wonderful that you feel so strongly about helping those children. The place where I work is very family friendly and we do everything we can to help the family as well as the child. Sometimes we need to remind ourselves that we are an advocate for our children.. The parent may not be the ideal parent but please remember that you are making a diffenence just by being involved. Please keep up the therapy and support the kids in every way you can and they will be better off by just knowing you. SUBJECT: Re:My 6 year old. Date: 97-06-30 21:01:36 EST From: TLVAIL Good job mom!! You know your son better than anyone- YOu listened to the adivise of others, thought and prayed and made a decision in the best interest of your son. Good work!! SUBJECT: K Lesson Plans Date: 97-07-02 18:20:04 EST From: MareCash I just got a grant for a kindergarten program for next year. I will be going into each class to integrate my goals with their classroom activities. I am looking for any ideas for language lessons for butterflies, apples, pumpkins, bears. Also - does anyone have a lesson plan or a resource for teaching elementary ages about hearing and hearing loss? I have two students in 4th grade coming in with phonic ears and would like to do soemthing in their classes. I also just received a Dynamyte for one of my special ed students and would love to hear of other SLP experiences with this or simialr devices and ways to integrate subjects, etc. Thanks! SUBJECT: Orton Gillingham Method Date: 97-07-02 21:23:46 EST From: BSCastle I am looking for any information regarding the Orton Gillingham Method of teaching. Any papers on how it is taught, and what are the theories and principles. Any research data on success rates as well. SUBJECT: Re:Orton Gillingham Method Date: 97-07-03 07:08:20 EST From: Mars000210 The web site address for the Orton Gillingham Society is as follows ods.org/ You may be able to acess the informtion you want through them. Barb SUBJECT: Re:Bilingual services Date: 97-07-03 21:31:51 EST From: SPeters680 Hi, I'm new but interested in your question. I think I would post/addendeum/ exceptions to the rule when it comes to grammatic structures of Hispanic cultures then look for consistency within their rules. If consistency did not follow, look for tests that accurately test ion both english/spanish cultures. It is a touch call but I would be very very conservative befor admitting to a label as a professional. SUBJECT: Re:stuttering - help! Date: 97-07-03 21:36:52 EST From: SPeters680 Hi, I am a professional SLP and interested in your question/comment. Your approach sounds correct to me. I often find word retrevial and subtle language impairments with children who stutter. There is ASHA research on adults but I don't remember the reference. Sarah Peters, Va. SLP. I SUBJECT: Re:stuttering - help! Date: 97-07-03 21:44:45 EST From: SPeters680 I am an SLP intersted in stuttering too. I agree that stress adds to disorganized language which is usually present in young stutters. Perhaps a video of child-parent interaction may identify some dysfunctional characteristics (if parent gives permission). If there is a divorce going on though, it is likely that she/he may be looking for a reason to accuse the partner of neglect/avoidance/etc. with the child. You are a small part of the situation. Don't allow yourself to be responsible for the problems of the child. O.K.? Sarah Peters, SLP-CCC SUBJECT: Assistive Technology Date: 97-07-03 21:53:16 EST From: SPeters680 Hello, I am a doctoral student ( and practiciing clinician) at a large university and have opted to pursue a dissertation on assistive technology issues and changes in the State of Virginia. I am interested in other states progress (or lack thereof) in providing services, service delivery models, written IEP plans, and funding of devices. Please contact me with your state's position and service delivery model. I would love for you to see into the future and predict what would happen to your state in the next five years. Thanks, Sarah Peters SUBJECT: Social stories /prag. probs Date: 97-07-05 08:41:57 EST From: SPCHRGM Does anyone have or can anyone tell me where to get a hold of the "Social stories" set of materials or any other materialsfor working on pragmatic issues? Would like to order some for our clinic when I return in the fall(am on maternity leave)...thanx...Regina SUBJECT: Re:Social stories /prag. probs Date: 97-07-05 16:03:32 EST From: WVV Hiker Here is the information for social stories/activities called "Social Star" The subheading is "Conflict Resolution and Community Interaction Skills". The company is Thinking Publications, and the FAX number is 1 800/ 828-8885. The address is 424 Galloway Street, P.O.Box 163, Eau Claire, WI, 54702-0163. The phone number is 1-800-225 GROW (4769) Hope this helps! Anne SUBJECT: Early intervention Date: 97-07-05 22:00:57 EST From: Nel Gab Er My child is 2 years 2 months old right now and speaks very little intelligibly. Receptively, he understands very well and can follow 2 step directions. But, I am getting really concerned about expressive language. I have 3 other children who all spoke in simple sentences by age 2. He calls all my other children "Ba", his bottle "Ba". He does say "do(long o)" for donut and "nan" for nanny and ma and da and done. That's it basically. Should I get him involved in some kind of early intervention speech therapy or should I wait another year and see if he develops expressive language? A speech therapist once told me by the age of six language should be intact. I don't want to wait that long if I can nip it in the bud now or at least begin developing some of his language skills. Please advise if you are a speech therapist. SUBJECT: Re:Early intervention Date: 97-07-06 09:02:07 EST From: ShelleyHL Contact the school in your area and find out about early intervention services in your state. They are available for all children with suspected learning difficulties and speech is certainly one. The school should be able to give you the correct contact person. SUBJECT: Re:K Lesson Plans Date: 97-07-07 20:16:55 EST From: TLVAIL Dear Marecash, Congrats on the grant! I know you will enjoy your time in the classroom- I try to use as many "toys", puppets, and songs in my classroom lessons. I also use a great deal of signing. I typically start with categorizing - a great song in "More songs for language learning" Comm.Skill builders. Then, as each month brings new themes, we can categorize new vocabulary. I have a core set of vocabulary that is set around the theme then add syntax and morphology that seem to fit. For example, if the theme is "All about Me" we work on emotions, adjectives of taste, smell, touch, and Pronouns so.. sentence targets are "She/he is happy" or "It is sharp" - You'll come up with great ideas by planning with your teachers and your "library" will grow over the years. Hearing- I did a fun presentation with a slinky for sound waves, a plastic soda bottle with the bottom cut off and plastic wrap placed on with a rubber band for the middle ear. I sucked air out to show what the eardrum looks like when you start to get an ear infection and blew on it to show how it looks when the ear is filled with fluid- The kids seemed to understand- even K. Good luck and keep us posted on how it goes! Tracy SUBJECT: Re:Social stories /prag. probs Date: 97-07-07 20:23:05 EST From: TLVAIL Regina- Carol Gray writes the social story books- 2140 Bauer Road, Jenison, MI 49428- Ph: (616) 457-8955 It's good stuff!! SUBJECT: Re:Social stories /prag. pro Date: 97-07-08 08:31:56 EST From: SPCHRGM Thanks guys, I now have two referencesto check(and possibly order) this fall when I go back to work...the interest is both personal and spurred by the fact that we don't tend to carry these materials in our office.Also, the CAPD listserve has had some parents and professionals writing in about a problem in recoginizing subtle and non-verbal cues in children with CAPD which can cause some interpersonnel problems....Regina SUBJECT: Developmental Verbal Dysprax Date: 97-07-08 20:57:19 EST From: MLynne7923 Help! I have a three year old student who has been diagnosed with developmental verbal dyspraxia by a physician. No SLP was involved in the workup at a major hospital that specializes in testing young children. This youngster has made great strides in verbalizing and using short phrases and one or two syllable words. He is now able to sit at and work for one whole session. Mom is seeing progress and Dad is seeing very little. I have been doing ongoing assessment of this little boy during our sessions (30 Mins.) The parents are happy with a dx, however, I am happier with seeing little growth spurts. Again, as in your previous discussions, the doctor has made a recommendation that this child should have more sessions per week and parents like for their son to work 1x1. In the fall, I see this as a hindrance at times. I would like to be able to include him in some groups for role modeling. Does anyone out there have any references that may be helpful to me for more techniques? This little guy is likea sponge right now because he is able to use "words" to communicate!!!!! ps This is a public school setting that I am speaking about. Thanks. SUBJECT: Re:Early intervention Date: 97-07-09 09:18:47 EST From: MirlaG I generally do not recommend formal speech and language therapy for children under the age of three. Rather, I prefer to work with the parents on the various ways they can stimulate speech and language development at home. With counselling many parents can help children this age a great deal. Your child may still need formal speech and language therapy at age three, but you may be able to jump-start him before that. Ask friends, pediatrician, preschool director or teacher to recommend a speech pathologist or check the yellow pages. SUBJECT: Re:K Lesson Plans Date: 97-07-09 13:21:55 EST From: Boulevard How fun! I'm taking a leave of absence this year, and one of the things I will miss the most is team-teaching. Last year I TT with a 2nd grade teacher & one spec. ed classroom. As far as your units, there are lots of things you can do --- I'd love to correspond with you about them. I've team-taught for the last 6 years, and had a ball doing it! During my favorite year, I had 45 min. per day in a primary MR classroom & we did it all ! We started by identifying that we'd do an alphabet letter per week. Here's how the week went: "A:" Monday - introduce the letter & show pictures starting with that letter. Talk about names of kids in the room, etc. that begin with that letter. Make the letter in the air, then in sand, then in clay. Tuesday - do some type of science/concept activity related to the letter. For example, with apples, we went through the growth of apples from seed to tree, etc. Wednesday - whole language - read a story about apples, illustrated our favorite part of the story Thursday - math - cutting apples in HALF, cutting the apples in a horizontal plane to show the star of seeds, weighing apples Friday - craft activity (ex. making apple prints) and cooking activity - making applesauce. I also sent home a newsletter on Friday that told parents what we'd done, what they might help with for next week (we need students to bring a food item, eg.), and suggestions for enhancing what we'd done --EX. Play a game where you go Around or Above things, talk about Aunts, eat an Artichoke, read one of the books about Arthur, read about Animals, practice Asking questions. PUMPKINS - sequencing using simple illustrations of carving, making pumpkin seeds, making a pie, seriation by size, etc... BEARS- have the kids bring a bear from home. Measure them, chart the lengths, characteristics, etc...Read bear stories, act out Goldilocks & the 3 Bears, Listening for Basic Concepts All Year Round - LinguiSystems, has great stuff with bears. I'd love to chat more! Nancy SUBJECT: Fast Forword Date: 97-07-09 19:10:46 EST From: SPUDSPOUSE My 4-year-old son has mild PDD-NOS and we are about to try Fast Forword. His ability to stay tuned in to computer games is excellent, he's a great mouser, he's pretty bright and beginning to read. His language can be impressive and interesting, but it is somewhat delayed and noticably odd. Articulation is essentially age appropriate, but he is slow to respond, has problems with prosody and struggles with lengthy or challenging conversation, especially in a classroom setting. He also has loud and high-pitched verbal stims at the most inopportune times. I'm looking for feedback from SLPs, parents and teachers about successes (or failures) they have experienced with this program. Any words of advice or caution for my little guy? Has anyone had insurance pay for this program? For those of you who know a lot about this program, does it seem to be an appropriate intervention for us to try? I welcome all opinions on this subject. Thanks! SUBJECT: Re:Early intervention Date: 97-07-10 06:56:38 EST From: ShelleyHL I agree that "therapy" for the under three group should be play based, and should include ways to make the environment communication friendly. Still and all, many states have 0-3 set ups that will address these concerns at no cost to families. SUBJECT: Re:Early intervention Date: 97-07-10 16:24:24 EST From: Barberent I am an SLP working with an Early Intervention program. I definitely agree that early intervention at the onset of suspected problems is beneficial. Most EI providers know how to work with both the child and the family to encourage language. I just worked with a 2 year old boy who also had little intelligible speech. He ended up having tubes inserted in both ears and impacted wax removed (the wax was so impacted that they had to wait until he was under to remove it). He also was a heavy drooler- he had his tonsils and adenoids removed also. Within 1 month of surgery , this little guy was speaking in 3-4 word phrases and the drooling had stopped. Without early intervention, Mom never would have investigated th "ear" aspect - this little boy wasn't hearing! SUBJECT: "Swallow Right" program Date: 97-07-10 16:37:59 EST From: Jesskoot This program for tongue-thrust is marketed by Communication Skill Builders. I have used portions of it and the kids seem to like it; the excercises must be practiced at home and therefore the parents must be commited to work with the child as well as reinforce appropriately. It does give a nice simple overview of what the problem is and what can be done (for parents). SUBJECT: "f" advice Date: 97-07-10 19:16:46 EST From: CP SLP In our hospital based practice, our pediatric therapist is having a difficult time with a child and /f/ articulation. He consistently protrudes his tongue at the end of the production stopping the continuant. He may achieve the labial-dental position but is unable to continue the sound due to the tongue up-forward position. She has tried depressing the tongue with a tongue blade; however this is too intrusive and the child cannot generalize the down tongue position when the tongue blade is not there. We are looking for other ideas on how to break this difficult pattern. We were thinking of working on velar consonants /k/g/ and seeing if that could help. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Reply to the board or e-mail CPSLP SUBJECT: Re:"f" advice Date: 97-07-10 23:31:55 EST From: Jtkita Have you tried having the child blow continuously and stop on command. Does the child protrude his tongue when stopping? If not, the child can practice producing the continuous airflow and stopping on command or move from the continuous flow to a vowel. Then gradually transition to the labial-dental position with continuous air flow and stop on command or move to a final vowel sound moving straight into syllables. Mirror practice moving from /f/ to a wide open mouth position might be fun for the child. jt SUBJECT: Re:"f" advice Date: 97-07-11 07:42:48 EST From: Barberent I usually have the child really place their upper teeth on their lower lip and press hard ("bite"). Have him sustain the/f/ in this manner, then progress to syllables in which the tooth-lip position does not have to change much /fi/, /fu/.See if this helps- it can be a long process before the idea really connects and is generalized. SUBJECT: Re:K Lesson Plans Date: 97-07-13 13:58:51 EST From: CarolO5940 << am looking for any ideas for language lessons for butterflies, apples, pumpkins, bears>> Marianne...I have lots and lots of ideas for activities at this level for these themes. If you're still interested, e-mail me and I'll get them out to you. Carol SUBJECT: Re:Social stories /prag. probs Date: 97-07-13 14:01:05 EST From: CarolO5940 <<>> I have this info. at school and can get it this week if you still need it. E-mail me if you want it still! Carol SUBJECT: Re:"f" advice Date: 97-07-13 21:27:37 EST From: TLVAIL Try having him blow packing p-nuts with an /h/ then a /f/- next, blow with the sounds together/f..h/- make a game to see how far he can blow the p-nut across the table. SUBJECT: Re:"f" advice Date: 97-07-14 07:35:32 EST From: ShelleyHL For production of the f sound, I use an exaggerated placement. I have the child "bite" their lower lip with their upper teeth. When I get good production, I have the child try words or syllables with the f at the beginning only. Then, I have them hold that f for a while and separate it from the rest of the word...f.f.f.f....at (fat). I have found this to be most successful with children who are over 4 years old, as they understand the directions. SUBJECT: Carol05940 Date: 97-07-14 15:34:09 EST From: MareCash I tried emailing you nad I get the message " not a known AOL user." SUBJECT: Re:outside opinions Date: 97-07-14 15:59:20 EST From: VBSSLP I've been out of town and this topic may be all finished up here, but I wanted to add one more thing...I really agree with the points that have been made from both points of view.(clinical vs. school therapy) I think one thing that hits home with me is, sometimes, in some situations in the public school setting there is the issue of parental involvement...It's free, hey it's even mandated by law, so there does exist the attitude at times that some parents feel absolved of responsibility...to pay for private services if that's what their child needs, to buy an AAC device if that's what they need, etc.. I'm a mom and an SLP, and even though I would love to be able to provide every child with top of the line services, individual attention, technology, etc... I find myself thinking "if that were my child and I felt so strongly, I would take responsibility to get these things for him, and if the school systems can't/won't provide it I'll do whatever it takes" I also think about my own children and my responsibility towards their regular education achievements....I don't presume to expect complete achievement for them without a lot of my assistance. We do have responsibility to complain and make things better through change, but generally the individual who has direct contact with the child is not the one who needs to be attacked. SUBJECT: Re:"f" advice Date: 97-07-14 22:51:05 EST From: MirlaG If I understand your post, the problem is that the tongue is obstructing the airflow. If this is the case, then I would suggest the therapist show the child where he should place his tongue and have him practice that position until he can easily do it when requested. Then I would have him keep the correct position as you ask him to open and close his mouth. If he understands, then his tongue will not move when he moves from an open to closed mouth position and back again. Next I would have him bite his lower lip as his tongue remains in position. From there, move on to tongue in correct position with teeth and lips in "f" position, have him open mouth and then back to the previous position. Once he can do this last step a few times he should be ready to try producing "f". Good luck. Mirla SUBJECT: Re:"f" advice Date: 97-07-15 14:34:16 EST From: DaysOfPooh Our daughter has a terrible time with the "f" sound . Her SLP has taught her that her teeth belong on her lower lip and that if she puts her finger up by her mouth she should feel air . We can give her a visual reminder by placing our finger by our mouth to remind her . She has trouble reproducing the correct sound in connected speech unless we slow her down but it is still progress !!!! Nancy SUBJECT: Oro-Motor Workshop? Date: 97-07-15 17:53:13 EST From: DebAnn07 I've heard that Sara Rosenfeld-Johnson will be putting on a workshop in Portland, Or. sometime in August. If this is so I would really appreciate knowing exactly when it will be held and where. You can E-mail me at Debann07 if anyone knows. Thanks, Debbie SUBJECT: Re:Oro-Motor Workshop? Date: 97-07-21 07:44:09 EST From: JLFCates For information on Sara Rosenfeld-Johnson you can access her Website at: members.aol.com/oromotorsp/index.htm. I attended one of her classes in June and it was great. Janet SUBJECT: Re:Speech Delay Date: 97-07-21 21:23:39 EST From: Shazi123 you are intitled to free speech and language sevices through the national government call your local school district to find out how to go about having your child tested so they can begin therapy RIGHT AWAY!!! SUBJECT: Too late Date: 97-07-22 20:55:41 EST From: MAVAH I sure do wish I had been on line before I finally gave up on being a speech therapist. When I came to this board I never dreamed there would be so many of you guys here!! Personally I could no longer take being jerked from to school to school (six in 7 years), the caseloads, paperwork, constant meetings about everything under the sun, and all the other stuff that kept me from really being a therapist. I'm going to teach kindergarten instead now where I can impact the language in a more constructive way!! Can't wait. I'll actually be able to spend quality time with my OWN kids instead of minutes with everyone elses. Thank God all the rest of you want to stay where you are. I'll miss a lot of things about Spec. Ed. not the least of which is the population of children and the wonderful people who teach there! I hope I bring something useful to this new perspective. I'll end up back here, though because speech therapy is all I've done in the schools since 1975. SUBJECT: Where to go from here? Date: 97-07-23 09:38:22 EST From: CkngSlf I am new to this board and glad to find it. I need some expert advice. I have a son age 4.5 yrs old who has mild auditory processing delay and has had speech therapy for a year. I was told he has now met all his goals and will be 'graduated' from therapy at the end of the summer. I agree that he has improved but am not convinced he is ready to stop the therapy. He speaks well during therapy but does not seem to transfer that to his peers in preschool or with any other situation except when he is alone with me. He also shows delays in other areas. He still cannot count to 10, recognize any numbers or letters and cannot distinguish 'same' or 'different' in simple toddler games. I am a professional musician and teacher, (and 10 years ago was tested and found to be creatively gifted) and I study giftedness in children. I have not had my son tested for creativity but I am aware of some very strong tendencies for performing and musical giftedness in him. My question is, does auditory speech delay and musical giftedness go together, or do I have a child who is possibly gifted and learning disabled? Where can I go for more information for my own reading and where should I take my son for help? Please respond here or feel free to email me. Thanks. SUBJECT: Re:Where to go from here? Date: 97-07-23 13:14:57 EST From: TLVAIL Dear Ckngslf, I would ask that my child be post tested to determine his current levels of communication skills- It's not enough that his goals have been met because there may be other areas of weakness that continue to contribute to his communication problem. If you'd like to get an overall profile of his strengths and weaknesses, a full psychoeducational battery would be in order. I haven't seen a trend in musical giftedness with my auditory process disorder kiddos but each child is an individual. It certainly is possible to be gifted and learning disabled at the same time. I'm a bit surprised that he was diagnosed with an auditory processing disorder at age three. Was it a receptive language or language comprehension problem? Some therapist use these labels and auditory processing interchangeably but there really quite different. What types of things did he work on in therapy? What specifically does he do when interacting with his peers that bothers you now? SUBJECT: Re:Where to go from here? Date: 97-07-23 14:54:28 EST From: CkngSlf Dear TLVAIL, Thanks for responding to my post. First of all, where do i go to get a psycoeducational battery of tests? Is this a normal follow-up proceedure with speech therapy or do I go through the local elementary school, psychologist, doctor? I was told my son had a mild auditory processing delay which affected his expressive speech. Apparently when he was tested at 36 months old, he understood language around him at his age-appropriate level but was only able to produce speech at a level of a 2 year old. The types of things they worked on in therapy were sequencing, matching, 2 and 3 level commands, and all this was done through game play and talking with a private therapist who I thought was very good at speaking so he could understand, and encouraging him to use more words. We as a family incorporated many new subtleties in our conversations to help my son and he did show favorable progress....but mostly with me when we were alone. I take more time to let him talk and spend more time with him than anyone else. I find that when things are exciting, noisy, or visually busy, he closes up and forgets all words. He gets the frustration look and pulls me or hits me to help him cope (or find his words). At his preschool, the teachers say he is shy....which is not like him anywhere else...and when I have observed, I noticed that a particular classmate always leads him around and helps him, speaks for him, and decides all his choices for him. I have confronted teachers, and the other parents, and the child himself, and although all say it is improving, I don't agree and am ready to switch to another preschool. Anyway, this is it in a nutshell, and I am worried some delays are being overlooked. I look foward to hearing a response. SUBJECT: Re:Auditory Processing Date: 97-07-24 06:58:22 EST From: FVIDOLIN The book CENTRAL AUDITORY PROCESSING DISORDER - Strategies for Use with Children and Adults by Dorothy A. Kelly, which is put out by Communication Skill Builders is an excellent resource for a puzzling problem. Good luck! Hope you find the book helpful. The address for CSB is 555 Academic Court, San Antonio, TX 78204-9941 Phone # 1-800-228-0752 SUBJECT: Re:Where to go from here? Date: 97-07-24 07:35:55 EST From: ShelleyHL You mentioned that your little guy was seen by a private therapist and the therapy sounds appropriate to me. However, I agree that three is a very young age to diagnose auditory processing disabilities. All that aside, the public schools are responsible for providing special education services in all areas for youngsters at no cost to the family. This would include any evaluations or interventions determined to be necessary for educational purposes. So...for further evaluation, contact your local public school and ask who the appropriate contact person is for this. Then, in writing, present your concerns and request a referral meeting to discuss evaluation. Now, my opinion. A 4.5 year old might not know all their letters yet. This is a skill that is taught in kindergarten in most places. While many children know their letters at this age, it is not out of the realm of average for a child to not know them. However, most children can match same items in games. As a speech path who works with prek kiddos in the schools, I sometimes dismiss youngsters from my program who have met the goal of having appropriate skills for their age. However, I continue to monitor their USE of their skills in the classroom for a portion of the following school year. In most cases, the skills transfer into everyday situations nicely. If I suspect other learning problems, I express this to the family and teachers using examples of the kinds of things I have seen. This helps the whole team make a better determination about further testing. I'm curious...Why did you see a private therapist vs. the school therapist? SUBJECT: Re:Where to go from here? Date: 97-07-24 14:37:50 EST From: CkngSlf Shelly, Thanks for your response. To answer your question, I took my son to a private therapist at age 3 because I didn't know the school therapy situation existed for children that young. I was concerned that he did not seem to respond frequently when spoken to and I thought something was wrong with his hearing. I went to a Speech and Hearing center for a hearing test. Since they came up with normal results, they decided to test speech and that's how we slid right in to have therapy on a private basis. I should also mention that when my son was 2 wks. old, he was stricken with a severe case of spinal menengitis. After 3 weeks of hospital stay, he was released with apparently no permanent damage. I was told that since he was so young there could be developmental delays along the way as he matured, but there was none apparent at his ripe old age of 5 wks. when he was released. So....I am forever on my guard to watch for delays. I do suspect there are other problems but I was told they would be mild and correctable. I just don't know exactly where or when to begin my search for testing and therapy or tutoring. SUBJECT: Re:Where to go from here? Date: 97-07-25 08:09:23 EST From: ShelleyHL If you are concerned about you child now then the time to begin your request for evaluation is now. You really should begin by contacting your local public school. Most schools in our area have great preschool teams who do a great job of identifying strengths and weaknesses in young children. The school district has a responsibility to respond to your request. They also hold a responsibility to provide an educational program if your child needs one. Good luck. SUBJECT: Speech and Martial Arts Date: 97-07-26 11:21:26 EST From: FulTymDave Unique program of martial arts as a therapeutic tool that enhances many communication skills including: breath support, trunk and head control, attention span, sequencing and memory abilities, and pragmatics. Success with children of many diagnostic catagories. We are interested in expanding our network of professionals. For more info call us at (248)338-8858. SUBJECT: Lateral /k/ and /g/ Date: 97-07-26 18:18:29 EST From: FVIDOLIN I have a student in my caseload - entering 4th, has a "slushy" /k/ and /g/. Have tried everything... throwing his head back, gargling, etc. the only thing that seems to work is to hold the middle of his tongue down with a tongue blade or lollipop, but even that is inconsistent, and there's no carryover. He's frustrated, making no progress, and has worked on this sound since Kinder. He just switched to my school, so I'm new with him, but we're both at our wits end...any suggestions? SUBJECT: Re:facilitated comm Date: 97-07-29 08:54:11 EST From: Lolli04 I am an SLP currently in the dark ages of "pull-out" services.(6 years) I have been interviewing for a new position and all are schools with SP/L services based in the classroom, and where almost all students attend their home schools. Consequently, the cases that I currently send "OUT" to our coop sped/CD classrooms(Autistic,PDD,CP,etc) are serviced AT the places I am interviewing with. I have been asked questions about Augmentative/Alternative Com. and Facilitated Com. and have NO experience with these.(except for a college course 7 years ago). Can anyone give me some resources for information on these, especially Facilitated Communication? Thanks. Lolli04 SUBJECT: Facilitated com/school ther. Date: 97-07-29 18:17:48 EST From: WVV Hiker I believe that ASHA, the national speech and hearing assoc., published a memo this past year, stating that facilitated communication was no longer determined to be appropriate means of communication, and that they couldn't support the research findings at that point. Somebody correct me if I'd dreaming.... Facilitated communication was assisted communication for autistic individuals and others, whereby another person would support their arm or hand while the dependent person spelled out words by using the alphabet on a board... When calling the school system for help, I'd call the admin building for your system, and ask for the number for the Special Ed. Dep't. The secretaries there will be able to assist you in calling the correct person in the area of sp. ed. to help you test your young child, and determine the most appropriate educational goals/placement for him if needed. SUBJECT: Re:Facilitated com/school th Date: 97-07-29 21:12:49 EST From: Lolli04 I, too, thought Facilitated Communication is as you described it (WVVHiker). That's why I was surprised that it was mentioned in the interview. Maybe it was thrown in there to see if I would react to it. I really don't know if they are actually still practicing it in that district. I do remember seeing reports questioning its validity. Thanks for your input. Lolli04 SUBJECT: Re:facilitated comm Date: 97-07-30 09:11:29 EST From: Boulevard Aside from your question about materials, I would just like to comment that I am disturbed to hear that ALL sp/lang services are provided in the classroom....I think it's certainly appropriate and beneficial to do classroom-based intervention, but I STRONGLY believe that a continuum of service delivery models is best(and legally appropriate). I think I would be asking questions of this interviewer as to why only one delivery model is used, and based upon what research. Just my 2 cents worth - Nancy SUBJECT: Assessment Date: 97-07-31 12:08:19 EST From: Msc30 I am a S/L Clinician in the public schools. I've been asked to complete a S/L evaluation on a 4th grader the first day of the 97-98 school year. She was referred through the instructional support process for difficulties with listening and reading comprehension. She does not qualify for special ed services as aresult of her pysch eval. There is asignificant split between verbal and nonverbal reasoning on the WISC-III in favor of the nonverbal skills. Her listening comp on the WIAT is low average at the 14th% and her listening comp on the Woodcock Johnson Tests of Cognitive Abilities is below the 7th %. I need suggestions as to what measures I should use in my eval. Thankyou. SUBJECT: Re:Assessment Date: 97-07-31 18:56:12 EST From: Willsons I suggest: 1) The Listening Test - It includes these subtests: Main Idea, Details, Concepts, Reasoning, Story Comprehension. There are excellent teaching suggestions in the examiner's manual. It is available from LinguiSystems, 1 800 PRO IDEA. 2) Test of Auditory Processing TAPS It includes tests of auditory memory. manipulation of auditory material, discrimination between like-sounding words, & others. These tests do require the student to verbalize, but if you take careful notes of the student's manner of responding and her exact words, you can learn a lot about how she processes what she hears. I will have to go off-line to get more details for you. I will do that later, :-) as once I "quit" it's difficult to get back on. SUBJECT: Re:Assessment Date: 97-07-31 23:18:23 EST From: Willsons I'm back on-line to add some more information: TAPS is the Test of Auditory-Perceptual Skills It includes: Auditory Number Memory Forward, Auditory Number Memory Reversed, Auditory Sentence Memory, Auditory Word Memory, Auditory Interpretation of Directions, Auditory Word Discrimination, Auditory Processing; altogether gives an Auditory Quotient. I don't have it at home so I can't give you the ordering information tonight. SUBJECT: Re: Assessment Date: 97-07-31 23:22:18 EST From: Willsons Continued: There are individual tests (other than the one in TAPS) of auditory discrimination for word pairs. If you have time, you might consider some criterion-referenced testing which could be based upon pages from text Auditory Processing Activites. Includes: Auditory-Discrimination, Memory, Perception, Association, Synthesis, Comprehension. (Authors JoAnn & RogerJeffries and available from ECL Publications, 708 West Solano Drive, Phoenix, Arizona, 85013.) Your scores would not be standardized, but you would have additional information to assess her skills. Has this child had an audiological evaluation by a certified audiologist? Please e-mail me if I can answer any further questions. Good luck! SUBJECT: Re: Assessment Date: 97-08-01 21:13:26 EST From: WVV Hiker Greetings, Regarding the testing of the 4th grader - check her age too, as there is a wide range of ages in one grade...and then the testing would be dependent on her age, and the test that would be appropriate...I'd like to see an overall language test, such as the Test of Language Competence, to see how she uses her language skills in "everyday life". Comparing her language scores and her verbal IQ scores - is she working to her ability, or is there a true deficit?? Why the "first day"? Would prefer she gets back into the swing/routine of school .... just some thoughts, keep us posted as to how it goes :) SUBJECT: Re: Assessment Date: 97-08-02 07:50:29 EST From: ShelleyHL I would agree that an overall assessment like the TLC might be good. But I also agree that the first day of school isn't the best time to evaluate any child. This is a time when the teachers and students are getting to know the routines and rules of the classroom, and the setup of the school year is being created. Especially for a child with a disability of any kind, this is a very important time. Why was this decision made? SUBJECT: Re: Assessment Date: 97-08-02 21:19:22 EST From: Boulevard I agree with Shelley --- if we are to be evaluating the impact of the communication disorder(s) upon the educational performance, how on earth can you do that the first day of school? You referred to psych testing - but did I miss the educational testing? I'm not saying that this student wouldn't be appropriate to receive services, but where is the communication preassessment? Nancy SUBJECT: Re: Assessment Date: 97-08-03 12:03:04 EST From: Msc30 Shelly and Nancy.....I totally agree with your concerns about testing the first few days of school.This thought entered my mind as soon as I received the request from the district psychologist who completed the summer eval. The request was issued from our director of pupil services last week. The 45 day MDE timeline is also "expiring". Once school begins we have 15 days to complete the MDE. Once again the stress is passed to me. This child was not referred for a s/l eval. during the instructional support process this past school year. Our district is infamous for passing the buck---if the child does not qualify for "placement", then it must be "speech/language" delay. This is not the case 95% of the time. The school year hasn't even started and I'm already behind! Do you believe how stressful the beginning of the year is? How do you deal with everything? Thank you very much for your input...:) SUBJECT: Re: Assessment Date: 97-08-03 12:07:39 EST From: Msc30 WW hiker....thankyou very much for your suggestions. I think we all agree that the first days of school aren't a good idea for assessment. This is out of my control now since we only have 15 days to complete the MDE once school begins. I"ll let you know how things go. SUBJECT: Re: Assessment Date: 97-08-03 15:54:32 EST From: Mithue If you have 45 days to complete testing, you should have an additional 30 to schedule an ARD meeting to review test results. Also, I do like The Listening Test and The CELF. Keep an eye on her attention. I had a student who did not process questions, wasn't even aware that I had asked a question from theListening Test because she was too busy looking everywhere but at me. What did the psych. score for Freedom from Distractability? What were her grades? What modifications were made last year? If she wasn't referred, did you plug in to any classes she had? Do you have a teacher report or classroom observation report by an administrator or special educator documenting classroom difficulty? sue SUBJECT: interesting web page Date: 97-08-03 18:15:31 EST From: Kaseyy Hi, Another music therapist has prepared a web page with this address: http://home.att.net/~bkbrunk/index.html We have some interesting links to other special education related sites. Thought I'd share that in case anyone is interesting in more internet "surfing". SUBJECT: Re: Assessment Date: 97-08-03 18:39:04 EST From: ShelleyHL I'm confused and might be wrong...In my school district if a new consent for evaluation is signed, the 45 day clock begins ticking then. It is my understanding that the 45 days are SCHOOL DAYS. So, for example, if a team evaluation is done and nothing comes up and the team reconvenes to ask for my evaluation, a new consent is needed and I get 45 school days to complete the task. It's only if the concern is on the original consent that I am up the creek. Please folks, correct me if I'm wrong here!!! Also, if you only have 15 days left, that's still three weeks when school begins...school days at 5 a week (and don't count Labor Day, no school). Also, I hesitate to ask this but what happened the last 6 weeks of school which accounts for 30 of the 45 days? Six weeks is a long time to wait to pass on a referral of any kind. SUBJECT: Re: Assessment Date: 97-08-03 22:14:34 EST From: Ratatat < It is my understanding that the 45 days are SCHOOL DAYS.> I can go back and double check IDEA, but I'm pretty sure it's calendar days. SUBJECT: Re: Assessment Date: 97-08-04 07:33:14 EST From: ShelleyHL Ratatat, Thank you for checking. Our school district has been doing school days for at least three years. This is in Connecticut...could it be different there? Also, am I correct about the date of consent for the testing (new consent...new time line). If not, I'll take this up with my director and principal who told us to use school days. ShelleyHL SUBJECT: Re: Assessment Date: 97-08-04 08:03:13 EST From: Willsons I hope I don't sound contrary here, but I have some concerns about some comments that have been made about this situation. I agree that a student probably should not be pulled the first day of school for testing. My reason would that a child needs to hear all the rules and plans that are presented in the classroom the first day. She needs to begin the process of making friends with her classmates. In other words, she needs to feel she belongs. A child with suspected communication difficulties is the child who especially should not miss the initial events. However, I would want to test this child as soon as possible. In my experience, the scenario is that this child's difficulties were suspected last year. The usual procedure would have been for her classroom teacher to have written a referral to the Child Study Team, outlining the difficulties she had seen in the classroom. That Team and the teacher would have met and discussed this child's classroom performance and made recommendations for accomodations/changes in the classroom. If the child continued to have difficulty, the parents would have been notified and someone would have made a formal referral to the CSE. After permission was received, the psychologist would begin testing. Some Districts automatically request Sp. & Lg. testing and others would request it per the observations of the psychologist. My point is that supposedly a lot has already taken place on this student's behalf, and that what is being requested is follow-through as soon as possible. Many of you suggested other issues that need to be considered as part of the picture and I agree with you, but I would expect they are already part of the record. The goal is to get services in place early in the school year, and not to let this drift into the fall, Christmas time, second semester, as we've all seen happen. Also, concerning choices of tests. There are several to choose from. In the interest of efficient use of time, and meeting the child's needs, you want to choose the test(s) that will provide the key to helping this child. It was originally suggested that she had difficulty in the areas of listening and reading comprehension; that is why I would start with the tests dealing with listening and processing. I also would include comprehensive tests of language such as the CELF. I hope these thoughts are helpful to you. It is not my intention to sound argumentative. Sue SUBJECT: Re: Assessment Date: 97-08-04 11:04:01 EST From: VBSSLP My understanding is that we don't need a new consent signed...just inform parents of what types of testing are being initiated. Not sure about the 45 days starting up again...We generally seem to feel the pressure to get it all done within the specified amount of days from day one. SUBJECT: Re: Assessment Date: 97-08-04 11:16:40 EST From: Msc30 In Pa. once the permission to evaluate is signed by the parent, the district then has 45 school days to complete the multidisciplinary evaluation(MDE). We also have the Instructional Support Team (IST) process in place for students who are experiencing difficulties in the school setting. These difficulties include academic, emotional, and/or behavioral. During the IST process the team brainstorms for stategies to help the referred student. These strategies are then implemented by the team for 30 school days. After 30 school days the team reconvenes to review successes and remaining areas of need for the child. It is also decided at this time whether to proceed to MDE or exit from the process with the classroom teacher implementing the strategies. In my district, when consent to evaluate is received from the parent , S/L eval is always included on the consent. This consent was probably signed near the end of the school year, the reason for 45days being around Sept. 15. I have no information on this particular student since I was not involved in any of the IST meetings. S/L was not part of the initial brainstorming strategies. I received the request after a summer psych was given. I need to find out all the info once school starts. I would also like to add for those of you who are not familiar with the IST process, that I have to take each of my S/L only students through this process. Talk about a lot of unnessary extra work! I have 26 yrs. experience as a S/L clinician in the public school system and have not had many situations where I have "corected" an "r" , "s", expressive, receptive language difficuties etc. in 30 days. Once again "thanks" to all of you. SUBJECT: huge caseload/help! Date: 97-08-04 11:47:27 EST From: Lolli04 I am a public school SLP who works in two buildings with approx. 80 students total on my caseload. I am searching for different service delivery models to implement. Currently, I pull-out all of my students. I would like to get into the classroom for my language impaired students, but scheduling planning with teachers and the actual therapy time is pretty much impossible! About 40 of my students are language impaired (or a combination artic/lang.) and are scattered into 25 different classrooms. Short of grouping same grade students in the same classroom (which is technically against the law) I am at a stand still. I collaborate with the teachers involved, but it is difficult to see each one every week, since none of us are awarded planning time for this purpose. I have read about block scheduling, which seems effective for articulation cases (student is seen every day for 8 weeks or so?) But what happens to the students waiting for the second block of time? They are struggling in the classroom the first quarter of school! Also, is there someone I can contact to look into our school district's services that might put pressure on them to hire another full-time therapist to adequately service the SL impaired population? I have written letters to the superintendent and school board (one of our school board members is also a parent of one of my students). Our district has an early childhood center, 3 elem., and one mid. School.Total 3200 students. Also, for the 1998-1999 school year we are adding 30 classrooms! I am responsible for 2 elementary schools, one with 900 students and one with 500. The other full time therapist is responsible for an elementary school of 600 and the early childhood center (200 students). A 1/5 time therapist is at the middle school a total of 1 day a week. Oh, I am in Illinois. SUBJECT: Re: Assessment Date: 97-08-04 13:07:53 EST From: PBTanguay Shelley - I actually had been reading about the CT timelines when I read your post. According to the material provided by SERC, it appears that you are correct in your understanding for our state. The language reads "The IEP shall be implemented as soon as possible after it is revised or developed and within 45 school days of referral.....These timelines shall be exclusive of the time required to obtain parental consent." So, it looks like your Principal and Director are correct. I swear the "powers that be" invent ways to confuse everybody - the due process timelines are calendar days - "Within 45 calendar days after the receipt of a request for a hearing........" Pam SUBJECT: HELP FOR THE LITTLE ONES Date: 97-08-04 14:29:23 EST From: HNYPooh Please help me to teach others,I need ideas on Inclusion/Co-teaching,especially for reading levels 1-4 and grades 4-6.I need to help these children and I want to bring any ideas into my classroom.Please help me to help others.Send all ideas to HNYPooh. PLEASE HELP :) :) THANKS :) :) SUBJECT: Re: Assessment/Pam Date: 97-08-04 15:15:29 EST From: ShelleyHL Pam, Thank you!!! I knew about the due process guidelines and I know also that sometimes the two are mixed up. I'm glad to know that, at least here, that the 45 days from referral for test completion are school days. ShelleyHL SUBJECT: Re:huge caseload/help! Date: 97-08-04 16:22:09 EST From: MareCash Hi! I am almost inthe same dilema only I have one elementary school (600 kids) and my caselaod is around 75 give or take five or so. I know it is really hard. Our districts policy is a max of 75 classified kids on our caseload. Of course, when you go over good luck in getting help for thesituation. Anyways, some suggestions for your current situation.... I had my first year this year in a K-5 (I was preschool before) and I had no experience with push-in services. I loved the idea, but was scared to death to teach a whole class, and the scheduling was tough. My kids were scattered everywhere. So, the majority of my year was all pull-out. I decided that I had to start somewhere, so the resiource room teacher and I co-taught once a week for a thirty minute session in her room. We would talk about hte book they were working on for the week, and I would come up with a lesson to focus on the book and integrate some speech and language goals. Sometimes I flopped, sometimes it went great. We had 8 kids in the group. By the end of the year the group had changed some and we had to change some goals. We plan on doing this again this year - it was a good place to start because it wasn't a whole class, and our goals really meshed nicley. For this coming year, I asked to be a part of the team who placed kids in classes for the fall. I found a few teachers who really wanted to work with me (they all don't - there are many teachers who don't want push-in services) and we did group some of the kids into several classes. I don't know about it being illegal, but it will defiantly serve the children better. We didn't put more than five SI kids together in a class.This cut way down on the number of teachers to work with. Of course, over the summer many kids will move in and out, so who knows what I will find. We are a city school and the end of the month means time to move for many of our students. Sad. So, I hope to do some small group activities in these classrooms. We'll see how it goes. I wil also be co-teaching with the art teacher this year! Sounds like fun!. We haev an 8:1:1 class 0f students aged 5-8. These kids need lots of help with basci concepts, following directions, etc, and I thought working in art, where there are lots of directions, would be great. She will do her lesson, and I will float and reinforce concepts, etc. I also wrote a grant this year for a new K program. I willbe going in once a week to each of the five K classrooms to do a half-hour language enhancement activitiy -geared at my SI students, but beneficial for the whole class. This is scary to me- a whole class of K's , but somehow I will do it. I'm one of those people who has great ideas, then when it's time to carry them out I'm shaking in my shoes. Then after you do it a few times, it's OK. I have 28 K kids so far on my caseload, so these large group activities will count a one of their weekly therapy sessions. I have always worried about them not getting enough( I was trained for 1:1 therapy), so I'm hoping this turns out positive. As far as conferencing with teachers,I am also trying something new. We all know we don't have time to meet with all the teachers. I ahev developed a form for the teachers to fill out. It has things on it like : theme of the week, books for the week, etc. This way I have an idea about what they are focusing on. I'm not sure they will fill them out, but I wil try it. Well, gotta get my kids to gymanstics - these were just some ideas to throw around. It is a hard step to give up that pull-out - I won't give it all up - it will probably stillbe a large part of what I do, but the other way is fun too! . SUBJECT: Re: Assessment Date: 97-08-04 18:36:16 EST From: TLVAIL I'm in NC and we also do not get a second permission form signed of an SI eval. Would it be possible to contact these parents and ask if they could bring the student in for the eval. before school starts? I have done this in the past and it provides me with the extra advantage of talking to the parents about home behaviors to give insight into the communication problem. I agree that the student should not be taken out of class on the first day- even the first week can be rough because schedules are getting worked out etc. One thing I'd like to mention is that I've had many students do great on the CELF-3 receptive scale then bomb the TAPS- It depends on how much their able to use visual cues to comprehend. SUBJECT: Re:huge caseload/help! Date: 97-08-04 18:46:50 EST From: TLVAIL I've had success seeing all my language kiddo's in the classroom. I see my artic. kids in the class too and pull as needed for initial training and placement. I also see an HI and CAPD kiddo individually due to the nature of their goals. I gave my pricipal a list of my students at the end of the year and she agreed to try to group them into specific classrooms ( no more than 5 in any 1 class) and I suggested particular teachers whose style matched the needs of my students. Why would grouping them be illegal? It's much more effective to be in one class for 45-50 min. than rushing from class to class seeing 1 or 2 students for 20 min. at a time! As far as the huge caseload, It sounds like you're doing the right thing. Explain that you feel you are unable to do your job as well as you know you are capable of because of the numbers. Explain that the children are not getting the services they need and you feel it's unethical for you to continue on the current course.- Send copies to everyone on the board as well as the EC director. Is there somewhere else you can work if they don't see the need? It may also be helpful to show them how much each speech/language child pulls down in state and Federal dollars to show them that SLP's actually generate a great deal of money for the system. In other words, they bring in more than they cost. It behooves the system to have as many as needed. I've quit over caseloads I've deemed too high (anything above 60). When they can't find SLP's they realize they need to change. SUBJECT: hypotonia Date: 97-08-05 14:42:21 EST From: SDiffen544 Hi Anyone with a child that has hypotonia? Low muscle tone. Any suggestions. My daughters expressive speech is much delayed. AT 24 months she says 3 words. Or are there any SL therapist who would be happy with this? Thanks in advance. Stella SUBJECT: Tongue Thrust Date: 97-08-05 15:47:00 EST From: TimM13 Hi! I am a recent SLP graduate who just recently learned that I, Yes I, have a tongue thrust. My new dentist pointed it out to me. Now I need to learn how to treat myself. Does anybody know of any good programs or am I just wasting my time. I do not have a speech problem (my "s" is fine) and I've had no feeding concerns. Your opinions are appreciated! Sincerely, MM (using Tim's computer) SUBJECT: Re:hypotonia Date: 97-08-05 16:40:44 EST From: TLVAIL Dear Stella, Has your child had a speech/language evaluation? If not, you should call your local health department or a private practice to get one scheduled. Who diagnosed the hypotonia? Low tone in the facial muscles can impact speech and language development but it's important to get a comprehensive evaluation to know what is going on. The earlier you start, the better off your child will be. Good luck and keep us posted! Tracy SUBJECT: Re:huge caseload/help! Date: 97-08-05 20:45:51 EST From: MareCash I had one more classroom I willbe working inthat I forgot to mention. It's a 15:1:1 class, lots of LD, Md and SI kids who are between 9 and 11 years. This year I am going to do the majority of the lessons form Patti Hamaguchi's book "It's Time to Listen." Communication Skill Builders. It's a really nice resource. SUBJECT: Re:hypotonia Date: 97-08-06 07:31:04 EST From: ShelleyHL Hi Stella, I agree, get a speech evaluation done. I would also request an evaluation by an occupational therapist to look at muscle tone throughout the body. Many of my little tykes have low muscle tone in the facial muscles AND in other parts of the body (like hands, fingers, back...relates to sitting). I work closely with the occupational therapist. ShelleyHL SUBJECT: Re: Assessment Date: 97-08-07 13:41:42 EST From: Boulevard The impression I received (perhaps I missed something) was that the referral for testing was made, but I didn't hear what the preassessment consisted of...I don't think anyone would suggest our hesitation as putting off services for a child in need. However, walking blindly into a testing situation without having the benefit of exactly what the communication concerns were last school year and the modification attempts in the LRE to help with those concerns is what bothers me. It is common, unfortunately, for a speech/language evaluation to be recommended as preassessment...."The child is having trouble reading; obviously there is a language delay.."(an historical scenario that resulted in our department insisting on preassessment) This leads to delaying the actual services the child needs, as far as I'm concerned. The child is evaluated (often without the benefit of cognitive testing, social history, educational assessment) by the SLP, an IEP is written, and the child starts language therapy...However, the reading issue, etc... isn't resolved...By the time the building team gets around to looking at this kid again, it's been almost a year....If good preassessment (which means getting into the classroom & applying strategies and creating modifications) happens, the correct step is to look at a comprehensive mulitidisciplary evaluation when it is shown (not just suspected) that preassessment cannot meet the child's needs. Nancy SUBJECT: Re:Speech and ADD/ADHD Date: 97-08-07 16:28:53 EST From: Rmtrrosie You are not alone! In our school system we also get referals on ADD/ADHD students. I agree that it is difficult to decide if the disorder is causing the language problem, or if the language problem is pre-existing. Hopefully, we will be getting guidelines for the system to decide who services the ADD/ADHD student with language disorders. If we get them, I'll try to post again. SUBJECT: autism and facilitated comm Date: 97-08-07 17:31:52 EST From: CHAUNCEY5 In working with children with autism and watching them use facilitated communication I have observed some children who type without assistance. Since facilitated communication is a source of such controversy now is it possible that more students may be taught to be independent and utilize the facilitator without physical assistance? This tool is a very valuable one for non verbal students wouldn't this be a worthwhile endeavor. SUBJECT: Re:Emotionally Handicapped Date: 97-08-08 19:08:50 EST From: WVV Hiker I read with interest the comments regarding testing ADD/ADHD students for speech and language disorders. I agree it may be tricky, and in the public schools, I'm definitely not looking for "extra customers"....and sometimes feel other special ed. services may help them more in the classroom ....daily instruction and modifications done by the grade level sp. ed. teacher...than I would be able to do. Another area I would like to see comments on is providing services for Emotionally Handicapped students, who are agressive, fighting everybody who breathes, and anger is the main part of their lives unfortunately...... is working on their language skills beneficial to them, when control of their lives is the main struggle that they have...... it's not the ones who are unable to express their needs and feelings, some of these students can express themselves REAL clearly ...... I'd like to make a real difference in a child's life if I service him/her.....not just have the units of service completed.... .....this is elem. school age, many from poorer homes, where the parents concern may be food, clothing , and shelter, and making sure that they keep their jobs....(hard time taking off during working hours)... thanks for any suggestions/comments SUBJECT: To Shelly & TVAil Date: 97-08-08 22:21:09 EST From: SDiffen544 HI Thanks for writing back so soon. I guess I left out alot of comments. Savannah is 24 months,MRI was normal. Pediatric nuero. dx'd her with hypotonia CP. She is under speech/language therapy 2x/week,OT is 2x/month and PT is 2x/month. Her most severe delay is expressive speech. Her receptive speech isn't quite as delayed. OT & PT have her only 2-3 months delayed. We have been using SLT for 9 months and she only says 4 words well with meaning:ma, da, hi and hot. I can hear her try to say other things with changes in her tone of voice but it sounds different. Like "blue" comes out " buee" for her. (Don't get me wrong, I think this is great that she is trying.) We'll have another evaluation soon and we are in an Early Intervention Program too. I am just getting frustrated with the slow progress. Or do you think this is slow? Before the therapy started she didn't say any words at all. Our speech therapist said in the beginning of therapy she never even closed her mouth. I also wonder what the future holds for her. Thanks again Stella P.S. I think speech therapists are great! YOu all must have such patience! SUBJECT: Re: Assessment Date: 97-08-09 06:04:51 EST From: Ratatat [These are copied from "Special Education Law and Practice: A Manual for the Special Education Practitioner, Ed. by Gary M. Ruesch] Tests and other evaluative materials must be designed to assess specific areas of educational need, rather than to provide a single general intelligence quotient score. In addition, tests used must accurately reflect a child's aptitute or achievement level or other factors, rather than the child's impaired sensory, manual or speaking skills. Finaly, no single procedure may be used as the sole criterion for determining an appopriate education program for the child. Under the regulations, an evaluation must be performed by a multi-disciplinary team or group of people, including at least one teacher or other specialist with knowledge in the area of suspected disability. The child must be assessed in all areas related to the suspected disability, including, where appropriate, health, vision, hearing, social and emotional status, general intelligence, academic performance, communicative status and motor abilities. For children who are suspected of having a specific learning disability, the regulations contain additional requirements regarding evaluation team members and criteria for determining the existence of a specific learning disability. 34 CFR Sec. 300.532(b) - 300.532(f) and 300.340 - 300.341. The procedures for evaluating children with specific learning disabilities mandate that the additional eligibility criterion that the evaluative team determine the existence of a severe discrepancy between achievement and ability in one or more of the following areas: oral expression, listening comprehension, written expression, basic reading skills, reading comprehension, mathematics calculation, or mathematics reasoning. 34 CFR Sec. 300.541(a)(2) SUBJECT: Re:Emotionally Handicapped Date: 97-08-09 06:07:24 EST From: Ratatat I think the new IDEA will address this. I believe that it mandates behavioral plans as a part of the IEP for students who have behavioral problems. SUBJECT: Re:Savannah Date: 97-08-09 12:19:21 EST From: ShelleyHL Stella, It sounds like you are on the right track. The support services Savannah is receiving are a good start. It's great that she is starting to say words...even ones you don't understand right now...and buee for blue is really alright...many kiddos have problems making that L sound at two. Keep working with the folks you have through early intervention. I'm sure they are giving you plenty of ideas to teach understanding of vocabulary. I always tell preschool parents, talk your way through the day. You might feel like you're talking to yourself, but this is excellent input for your little tyke. When you talk about what you are doing you are putting language into context which helps develop understanding (example, while tying shoes you might be saying " look at these shoes. Lets put one on this foot. Now one on the other foot. I'm going to tie them now. Okay...time to go for a walk."). Play and talk to Savannah...but I'm sure you have already heard that. I'm glad to hear that an OT is helping. They have a lot to offer regarding motor movements and I find we make a good team. Good Luck. ShelleyHL SUBJECT: Re:speech delay Date: 97-08-09 15:28:18 EST From: Missy3840 My son also has been loosely diagnosed with a speech delay. I say loosely because the eval was done by a speech path, whose group was referred to me by my son's ped. (thru the HMO) the eval was a total waste of time, as Brian wouldn't do anything, point to anything, etc. It was done in a small room about 10ft by 10ft at a new facility. Not set up for kids by any means. In one corner was a set of parallel bars and in the other, a bed for OT. Halfway thru our session, another therapist came in with an elderly man to do therapy on the bed for his knees. Since it was a new facility there was no where for these people to work. Brian was more interested in playing on the bars and reading her book (very interested in ABC's). The results were very sorely lacking. I promptly contacted my county school system & he was in home sessions for 2 mo, then 1X a week summer session. A teacher friend has mentioned that he seems to have some of the symptoms of apraxia (?) he will be seen by an ENT on tuesday to rule out anything there. The main reason I am so worried is that he is so advanced in both gross & fine motor dev. and seems to be very intelligent & understands so much. he will be 3 in october and knows all his abc's...can't say them *all* but some of them & he can point them all out. He knows the whole sign language alphabet in sequence and can often start from the middle & go from there. He loves to count and if I show him a few of something, he can sometimes put up the right number of fingers (if he feels like it, that is:-) The county did not do another speech eval just a general eval by a teacher. I've checked out the web site on apraxia looking for info, but it doesn't say how testing is done, etc. If anyone has info or has similar situation with their kids, please feel free to email me. I need all the help I can get. Thanks for reading! SUBJECT: tongue Date: 97-08-10 07:35:08 EST From: CkngSlf I am a mom of 4 yr old who has always stuck his tongue out when concentrating. He moves it in and out and in the winter gets terribly chapped lips. He had spinal menengitis as an infant and when released from the hospital no apparent signs of brain damage were present. He has been in speech therapy for a year for a mild auditory processing delay. Other delays are not confirmed but I suspect some other mild problems for which he will be tested next month. Is there any connection with this tongue thing and other delays? SUBJECT: Re:speech of Missy's son Date: 97-08-10 09:23:48 EST From: WVV Hiker Greetings, Sounds like your son has learned alot. Can you tell us more of what he can say? Does he say words on his own, or just repeat words after you? If he does talk on his own, what might be some of his "sentences" or "phrases"? Just like the earlier message suggested for that child, talking while you do daily activities, is great for language stimulation for any child, along with reading to them, and talking about the pictures in the story books..... my school system (NH) takes children as soon as they turn 3 for testing, and/or therapy.... so perhaps a test by your local school system might be available after his 3rd birthday..... Due to the poor testing conditions, the Speech-Language Pathologist might have done an observation, and written down a sample of what he said, and his interactions with her in order to present a better "picture" of his skills...... Keep us posted how things are going..... hope all is straightened out... SUBJECT: Please Look at our Site! Date: 97-08-10 19:54:02 EST From: Nancybert There's a great International Educational Internet Web Site Design Contest for kids 12-18 called ThinkQuest. From August 1- 31st it is being judged for effectiveness, content, creativity and technical facets. Because the goal of the Contest is to promote learning through the Internet, students are needed to judge the content for effectivess. There's an email page for feedback by the students and the entries are checked for appropriate content. The Global School Network of C-U-See Me Fame is the administrator of this high quality educational contest. We need your assistance in "getting kids to the site!" TQ's offical rules page is at http://www.advanced.org/thinkquest My student's site is at: http://library.advanced.org/11799/ The site is entitled: "Just Because We Have A disAbility Doesn't Mean We BYTE!" and has 3D simulations of dyslexia, hearing impairments, mobility impairments, sign language library and many other fun but educational information (All to the tune of the Macarena!). Surf safely and have fun! SUBJECT: ASHA Date: 97-08-10 20:44:49 EST From: Msc30 Would someone please bring me up to date concerning Speech and Language "assisitants" that ASHA is considering?. I heard some "sketchy" info today that people completing 2 yrs. of training could be hired by a school district to aid the S/L Clinician. Does anyone have correct, detailed info on this topic? I see huge caseload numbers and many more IEPs if this is true.Thankyou. SUBJECT: Re:ASHA Date: 97-08-11 18:43:30 EST From: LINDA17502 I believe ASHA is still in the planning stage as to the educational level which will be required for speech pathology assistants. Have you checked out the ASHA web site www.asha.org? You might find more info there. SUBJECT: speech therapy assistants Date: 97-08-11 20:26:59 EST From: VCB44 I am very concerned about the emergence of speech therapy assistants. I can already see evidence of some local school districts abusing this to the max. I am presently thinking of two who were recently hired by my own school district. I am told that they can function independently but with two hours of supervision per week. At one point I was told that the supervising SLP did not have to have her C's, just a state license. At one school, a certified SLP (but non-practicing) will be providing supervision and will have her own office on the other side of the wall (as they have split a classroom). This assistant, I'm told, does have some years of experience and a Bachelor's degree in speech pathology. The other assistant has a bachelor's degree in English! During her student teaching she worked with an involved speech student, really enjoyed it, went back and took some courses in speech pathology and is now out to provide services. Details of her supervision are still being worked out. I am aghast as I said at the beginning of this post and really feel that the system is being really abused as the district just works to fill the squares! SUBJECT: Re:speech therapy assistants Date: 97-08-12 06:29:19 EST From: Msc30 Thank you for responding about S/L assistants. Receiving more info makes me even more infuriated! Who are these brain childs that come up with such ridiculous ideas!?! What school district is going to hire a fully qualified S/L person at a higher salary over a lower paid assistant? I'm sure my district will opt for the lower salary. Once again the students are forgotten for the "almighty" dollar. SUBJECT: Re:speech therapy assistants Date: 97-08-12 11:11:18 EST From: LINDA17502 Part of the problem, is that ASHA can make rules only for the organization/members. Those of us with CCC's can put our credentials in jeapordy( with ASHA) when school districts ask us to supervise people who are not considered qualified by ASHA standards. It is a very sticky situation. Also, I don't know about the rest of you, but I became a Master's level clinician to provide therapy, not just to do evaluations, write IEPs, and then supervise therapy. On the bright side, some states still have laws stipulating that the highest qualified professional is to be the service provider. Unless a district can prove that they sought out and could not find a Master's level clinician, they are not supposed to hire lesser qualified personnel. Each state has varying regulations, though. SUBJECT: Re:speech delay-Missy's son Date: 97-08-12 13:29:17 EST From: AndersonTG In Illinois, the school district is responsible for doing speech/language evals. at age 3. I know we have done them when the child is just turning 3. You may want to call your school district now and request the evaluation. By law, they should honor your request. SUBJECT: Re:speech therapy assistants Date: 97-08-12 22:31:35 EST From: SUBEKKOI You hear of this sort of thing all the time, especially in the medical community. "Technicians", "assistants", etc getting the jobs, the better shifts, etc because their wages are lower. However, I'm all for an assistant to help with paperwork, scheduling, running copies, etc. -- But, I guess if they gave us that, eventually, abuse would set in. It's all about dollars and cents :-( Incoherent rambling unbecoming a speech-language professional... SUBJECT: Auditory/Phono. Processing Date: 97-08-13 07:15:13 EST From: Concepts1 The Earobics and Earobics PRO Auditory Development & Phonics programs use sophisticated computer-training techniques, including acoustic enhancement of the speech signal and adaptive training, to facilitate development of the auditory phonics skills that are critical for speech and language development and academic success. Multiple levels of difficulty, as many as 114 levels per game, deliver extensive practice and comprehensive training of a variety of auditory and phonological processing skills including auditory attention, auditory discrimination, auditory figure-ground discrimination, auditory memory, phonemic synthesis, sound segmentation, auditory and phonemic identification, sound-symbol correspondence, rhyming and phonological awareness. Earobics is the only scientifically-based program of its kind. The program is ideal for children who require more phonics training than what is provided by most schools. Earobics is critical for children with speech and language delays, auditory processing and attention deficits, language-based learning disabilities, and reading difficulties. Earobics PRO is used by speech-language pathologists, audiologists, educational clinical psychologists, and reading specialists in private practice, schools, and hospitals throughout the United States and around world. Now, this professional-grade program is available directly to parents in an affordable and easy to use home version. Visit www.cogcon.com for more information. SUBJECT: Re:speech therapy assistants Date: 97-08-15 01:56:45 EST From: Beanie7783 I think LSH Ass't uproar is a waste of our time..Our profession needs to concentrate on putting more LSH in the field so there are not the shortages we see in many areas of the country..not training ass'ts....a good ass't is very valuable to the LSH..and can be trained by an experienced LSH with common sense.... SUBJECT: New IDEA & Documentation Date: 97-08-15 06:47:17 EST From: HarrietSLP Well....school has started back and I went to several special ed meetings yesterday. I don't have time to go into detail but justwant to warn you guys that it appears that diagnosis and therapy have taken the backburner for the more important aspect of the therepeutic process - DOCUMENATION. I have always been a very meticulous person with my paperwork in order. But I am really disheartened as to what has happened in what has happened in recent years in terms of accountability needed. I think we are all humans on this board and we all have a limited about of physical and mental energy that we can expend within a day's time without collapsing from fatique and mental exhaustion. I see that I can no longer have the time to do the creative type of things I used to do in therapy which made therapy more fun and motivating for the child. With 75 children on my caseload and with 5 different schools to serve ( one is 24 miles from the other) the ability to plan and execute good therapy is being compromised by the DOCUMENTATION. My husband commented that he is surprised that we don't have to document when we go to the bathroom, how long it took, and the reason for any delay ( big dump vs. little dump). The priority has shifted away from working with the child to excessive bookeeping and documentation on everything we say or do I can't speak to a child's mom in the hall without making a record of exactly what went on. BTW, I've always prided myself on being an excellent therapist. Never had a complaint filed against me or gone to mediation or due process in the past 25 years as a public school speech and language pathologist. Are Special Education lawyers responsible for this inhumanity? I feel they are doing our children more harm in the long run than good. Would welcome any comments on this subject. However, I've got to run for now and start on my paperwork ~Harriet SUBJECT: Re:New IDEA & Documentation Date: 97-08-15 11:00:02 EST From: Msc30 I agree with you that the paperwork/documentation has gotten out of hand. I've been a public school S/L Clinician for 26 yrs. I dread starting year # 27 because I sense an increase in the unnecessary paperwork/accountability. This increase , I believe, comes from various sources: 1.the untrusting /gestapo like district I work in 2. the nitwits operating the PA. Dept. of Ed. 3.those parents of special needs children who are so demanding and waltz into the MDE/IEP conferences with the god-like advocates who truly do not have a clue as to what goes on in the schools. There is nothing we can do to change this. It will contine to get worse as long as these situations continue to exist. I feel sorry for the students in regular ed. because they truly have no rights. Unfortunately, the parents of these students were/are not as vocal as the spec. needs parents. Our district director of Pupil Services told all professional staff during an inservice that reg. ed. students have no rights. I start each yr. with a positive attitude and truly look forward to continuiig to help my students. Unfortunately, the positiveness becomes buried under the paperwork, huge caseloads, travel time, administrative edicts, and unjust parental demands. Try to have a sane yr. :) SUBJECT: fastforward Date: 97-08-15 12:27:37 EST From: CHRIS HINO Can anyone give me information on a program called Fast Forward? I think it is a computer program for children with delayed language. Where can I find out more? Please leave message or e-mail me at chris hino@aol.com. Thanks! SUBJECT: Re:fastforward Date: 97-08-15 13:14:20 EST From: PBTanguay I'm looking for information on this program also, so please post responses to BB okay? SUBJECT: Re:New IDEA & Documentation Date: 97-08-15 14:57:33 EST From: HarrietSLP <> Thanks for responding to my post. It helps to vent occasionally and to know that I'm not alone in my frustrations. Will try to keep a smile on my face and pray for strength to do the job that lies ahead. Harriet :o) SUBJECT: Re:Tongue Thrust Date: 97-08-15 17:56:26 EST From: OromotorSP One of the best ways to get good tongue retraction is to use therapeutic straw drinking. I use a system of straws that gradually works on tongue retraction through grading. It is important that you begin with an easy straw. Place the tip of the straw at midline between your lips. Put only 1/4 to 1/2 inch of the straw between your lips. This position will work on both lip protrusion and tongue retraction as you will not be able to bite or suckle on the straw. When you use this technique with your future client's you will be amazed at how well it works. People who attend my workshops have told me that this technique has worked really well with clients from age 1 on up. Make sure to use atleast 8 straws of increasing difficulty. If you want more information about the specifics, e-mail me at : oromotorsp@aol.com Sara Rosenfeld-Johnson SUBJECT: Re:hypotonia Date: 97-08-15 18:02:59 EST From: OromotorSP Stella: The advice about getting a relaible diagnosis is a good one. Once the diagnosis is made however, the type of treatment will be very important. Children with hypotonia, whether it be benign hypotonia or secondary to a syndrome (Down Syndrome) should receive oral-motor therapy, which directly addresses the weak muscles. Make sure that your SLP has received some training in this area. It will really make a difference Sara Rosenfeld-Johnson SUBJECT: Re:Fast ForWord Date: 97-08-15 19:30:43 EST From: Bre5 Go to http://www.scilearn.com SUBJECT: Phonological kids & reading Date: 97-08-15 19:31:53 EST From: LNOVOTNY Hello all, I have a question regarding reading skills. I work with soo many youngsters who are not yet readers and have severe phonologcial disorders. I want to facilitate some early reading skills. What materials can I use toward this end? Thanks, Laura :) SUBJECT: Re:New IDEA & Documentation Date: 97-08-16 06:49:05 EST From: Ratatat < I can't speak to a child's mom in the hall without making a record of exactly what went on. BTW, I've always prided myself on being an excellent therapist. Never had a complaint filed against me or gone to mediation or due process in the past 25 years as a public school speech and language pathologist. Are Special Education lawyers responsible for this inhumanity? > After ready your comments about your districts need for an extraordinary level of documentation, it made me wonder if your district hasn't recently lost a due process case? If so, it would well be that the school is reacting to that so it might always be well prepared in case it's every challenged again? SUBJECT: Re:New IDEA & Documentation Date: 97-08-16 06:51:57 EST From: Ratatat <3.those parents of special needs children who are so demanding and waltz into the MDE/IEP conferences with the god-like advocates who truly do not have a clue as to what goes on in the schools. > If parents come to meetings with advocates it usually indicates that they feel they *need* an advocate to help them with the attaining FAPE for their child. You say your district behaves in a Gestapo-like way. That is probably VERY intimidating to the parents. When parents are truly respected as *equal* partners in the IEP process, the need for advocates will evaporate. SUBJECT: Re:New IDEA & Documentation Date: 97-08-16 10:14:07 EST From: WVV Hiker "When parents are truly respected as *equal* partners in the IEP process, the need for advocates will evaporate." 99% of my parents are caring individuals, who want what is best for their child/children. Out of my caseload of approx. 70 students, 2 parents (of different kids) are "excessive" in their demands, so that the school spends much of the time, meeting the parents' needs.... I can't go into details, but the care of the child by the parent seems to go on the "back burner" and the need for power, for challenging the school and for attention seem to be the main concern of the parent.... They are the type of parent that makes an educator remark - "if they would only leave Johnny alone....." The child is making progress in the classroom and is a delight to work with, if only his parent would emphasize his strengths instead of always pointing out the negatives (to the child too). As an Speech-Language Pathologist, I would do anything I could to help my parents and the children, but when a parent is SO DEMANDING (no, I have more than a caseload of 1!!, and children with greater needs), and such a personality almost has a negative result.... dread seeing the child, as think of parent at same time.... Well, I have one more week of summer vacation, before school starts....I'll end here, before school phobia starts - the more I think about caseload, severity of cases, etc. In 1974, - 75 on caseload, mostly speech (R's, lispers...) then 20+ years later, same number on caseload - mostly moderate to severe language delays, autistic, non-verbal, multiple speech errors resulting in unintelligible speech, etc........ hmmm, same caseload size, severity of students much more needing of services!!! and more documentation :D Happy Fall :) Wishing you a year of calm, peace of mind, as you are surrounded by whirlwind storms! SUBJECT: Re:New IDEA & Documentation Date: 97-08-16 12:01:23 EST From: BigJohnEsq The reason that parents feel the need to bring advocates with them to the IEP process may just be that they have a real "clue what is going on in the schools". Having attended my fair share of IEP, represented parents in due process hearings and in federal and state court, I can attest that the schools that work with the parents as an equal partner are generally not the ones who see me in these situations. It is the District and their staff that adopts the "we know it all" attitude regarding the child, and/or for a multitude of reasons refuse to follow the spirit (and the letter) of the special ed and 504 laws, that have the problems. You would be surprised by how ofter I receive a confidential call from a classroom teacher to ask if I will help a parent because the administration/district in their district is doing everything it can to evade their legal and moral responsibilities. Finally, RaTaTat (as usual) is probably right. While the new IDEA laws imply more accoutability, your District probably was nailed with a "failure to evaluate" or a failure to "child find" case. The solution is not in less accountability, it is in what I proposed as a school board member to my district in 1986. That is, hire a secretary for each "x" number of teachers so that the classroom teacher can concentrate on what they do best (working with students one-on-one) and a lower paid secretary can take care of the documentation (a la the medical records field). JFB SUBJECT: Re:New IDEA & Documentation Date: 97-08-16 14:12:14 EST From: Msc30 Hiker's response is right on target! No, my district has not lost a due process hearing recently. The "gestapo-like" comment I made in my previous message was referring to my district's administration. WHAT A BUNCH!!!! The parents I referred to comprise about 1% of those that I deal with. Believe me, this small group of "defensive" parents has no justifiable complaints about the services provided to their child/children. We are an excellent team! Their negativeness and "attack" mentality makes it a miserable work situation. Their kids are great, in spite of them. Wishing all of you in the "trenches" a sane and successful year. :) SUBJECT: reauthorization of IDEA Date: 97-08-16 17:24:43 EST From: VBSSLP I work with the pre-school population, and a number of our kids are 'speech only'; receive only speech/language therapy. How are those in similar situations handling requirements by IDEA 97 that a regular ed. teacher that could teach that child must be present at IEP meetings? Some of these kids aren't even in preschool anywhere, maybe a mild artic. case. Who will be that reg. ed rep. We are not housed in a regular school, so I can't even just 'borrow' a teacher. SUBJECT: Re: reauthorization of IDEA Date: 97-08-16 22:04:54 EST From: MLynne7923 Dear VBSSLP, Our school system was monitored this spring and the issue of preschool IEPs and the absence of teachers was discussed. What we were told by this crackerjack monitor from the SDE was that we (SLPs) are able to sign an IEP as either teacher or administrator and SLP. One or the other , not both. On the multidisciplinary report, however, we do need another SLP to sign on the MET. I believe this is going to help me this year with my preschool programs and look forward to a lot less hassle. It used to be a lot easier when I began 35 years ago, however, our caseloads ranged from 100 to 175. Of course, much less paperwork. I don't know which is better, more kids or more paperwork. At times, I felt as though I was teaching a choir, in order to see everybody. Well,I hope you all have a great and helping school year ahead. MLynne SUBJECT: Re:Hearing Impaired Children Date: 97-08-16 23:42:05 EST From: NTRPRT99 I am looking for information on children who are hearing impaired. If you know of any colleges please let me know. Thanks SUBJECT: Chat room-School Based SLPs Date: 97-08-16 23:42:42 EST From: Pmp88 A new chat room has been especially designed for school-based SLPs!!! Who: K-12 SLPs and Pre-K What: Private chat room Where: *slpk12chat* When: 2nd and 4th Tuesday monthly, at 9:00 Eastern time How: Click on People icon, click on list chats button, click on private room, in the box, type in slpk12chat, then click on go and you are there!!! If you can't find us, please IM PMP88 (Patti) or Secondslp3 (Ellen) and we will get you there. Good luck and Please join us for informal chats twice a month beginning Sept. 9th. Just for starters, we may chat a while about identification of articulations students without language or learning disabilities. Therapy plans, your top 10 therapy materials, and/or school start ups are only a few of the topics that we would like to discuss. If you have any ideas, let us know. SUBJECT: Re:Chat room-School Based SL Date: 97-08-17 07:06:27 EST From: ADDisREAL I want to make sure you all know about a "formal" chat that is hosted every week in the Personal Empowerment area (Keyword: PEN): Mondays 10 p.m. ET (22:00) Speech and Language-Related Disorders Mutual Support Facilitator: RMacI49796 Room: Mutual Support Lounge Keyword: dis>Chat Rooms button SUBJECT: PhD?? Date: 97-08-17 11:18:39 EST From: JMLCMB Hi. I am thinking of going back to get my PhD in Speech and Language Disorders. I would love to learn from others what exactly is involved in this process. Thanks for the help!! Christine SUBJECT: Re:New IDEA & Documentation Date: 97-08-17 18:14:40 EST From: Lynnebl In the first IEP meeting I attended in which I knew the law, I ask for one simple modification.....Preferential seating. This modification is FREE and doesn't require any extra time from the teacher. Can you believe the school fought me on it?!! This led me to ask more questions about the education my child was receiving...........Two years later.........we went through a due process hearing and won. And my child has an appropriate reading program in which he is making great progress!! Now I am grateful the school behaved like the GUSTAPO!!! SUBJECT: Language Master Date: 97-08-18 04:39:22 EST From: KATHLEE466 Does anyone know of a "language master-type" device that is used for early reading instruction? I once saw one in a toy/educational store and would like to purchase one. It had preprinted picture and word/sentence cards plus blanks for recording. Thank you, Kathy SUBJECT: Re:New IDEA & Documentation Date: 97-08-18 06:14:05 EST From: HarrietSLP <> RATATAT, Quite the contrary! We've never been to due process!!! And I suppose one reason is that we try to do what is morally, ethically, and legally right. We are a small school system and generally have good rapport and relationships with our parents. It is governmental bureauocracy and the fear of lawsuits heard about elsewhere that's causing alarm. We want to do the right thing but like I said in my original post we are HUMANS too. BTW, I now have a disabling condition - rheumatoid arthritis and have been told I may qualify for a 504 plan. I've jokingly remarked to my husband - that if worse came to worse then I certainly know MY rights after 25 years in special ed. ~ Harriet SUBJECT: Re:New IDEA & Documentation Date: 97-08-18 15:47:01 EST From: X52hmcx Comments on Msc's complaints: To say that I was upset at your remarks would be an understatement!! I am an certified SLP and the mother of a child needing services of a certified SLP. All the documentation that you dread is put in place for a reason. I am sorry that you must prepare 75 or so IEP's. But as a parent, I only care about the IEP you have designed for my child. Each one of those forms represents the special abilbities and needs of a particular child. If you cannot stand another year of the trouble, get another job or get out of the field. Paperwork is part of the job and is necessary. I would guess that anyone of the parents of students you work with would gladly do your paperwork for you if it would mean that their child would not need your services. I would pay the salary of a speech path if my child could communicate normally. Please use some empathy when dealing with parents. Put yourself in their shoes. How would you feel? What if you had received special ed services as a child and still dealt with the hurt? Please remember why you went into this field in the first place! Before I had children, I always felt for the parents in the IEP meetings. So many "professionals" sitting around the table and spouting an "educational foreign language". You can make a trememdous difference in the life of a child and in the life of the parents of that child. What is more important than helping a person communicate their needs and wants and affecting the enviornment around the?. Communication is freedom! Get the parents on your side. Let them complain to the district about needing more therapists. And finally, if you were the Speech Path working with my child I would want to do all I could to help you succeed with my child. Please give the weak, uncaring, loud, compliant, demanding, informed and/or informed parents a chance. These are our children we love and for whom we want the best. We expect and want the same from the teachers and therapist who work with our kids. Sorry, I had to vent as well. I do wish you a great school year, for you and your clients. Molly's Mom SUBJECT: Re:New IDEA & Documentation Date: 97-08-18 16:43:26 EST From: WVV Hiker Dear X52hmcx and other parents, As a Speech Path in a school serving pre-school and elem students, I read your message with interest. I care very much for the children I serve. During parental meetings, I agree about the importance of using plain English to explain the IEP and communicate with my parents on their level. I am FRUSTRATED by the redundant paperwork, when forms tend to require the same info on them, when paperwork (other than the IEP) seem to take on a HIGHER priority than actually SEEING and WORKING with the child. Some paperwork is necessary, as it applies directly to the individual plan for the child, and her progress. The filling in other forms or paperwork doesn't help your child - I want to work with her as often as I can.... All my evaluation reports and IEPs are done at home - yes, my family nearly forgets who I am especially during May and June (IEP months)..... In summary, I think some of the frustration of being a SLP in the schools, is that sp. ed. dep't. paperwork, medicare forms, redundant forms, and forms that we wonder if anybody will actually ever read can seem to take higher priority over the working with the children.....I want what is best for each child I see, and I want to work with them as often as would be beneficial. SUBJECT: Re: Phonemes&phonemic awaren Date: 97-08-18 17:40:41 EST From: JBauthrep I am looking for a copy of the LAC test, the Gort, Detroit Battery or any other reading tests I can use in starting a free clinic for underpriveged kids. Does anyone out there (like DoraMay) have anything I could beg or borrow? JBauthrep@aol.com SUBJECT: Re:New IDEA & Documentation Date: 97-08-18 18:26:53 EST From: HarrietSLP Hiker, Thanks so much for expressing the frustration that so many of us public school SLPs feel. The PRIORITY is being taken off the therapy needs of the child and being transferred to EXCESSIVE paperwork and accountability. 27 years ago I was taught in college that ACCOUNTABILITY was a very important component of the diagnostic and therepeutic process. However, I think that many public school SLP's are now being punished for the sins of a few bad apples in the bunch. Also, this new requirement about an M-Team meeting before doing a re-eval (just to determine whether or not a complete reeval needs to be done and PRIMARILY designed to have the parent a part of the assessment team) will rob more therapy time. Why can't we just get the parent's permission to do a re-eval and get on with it? I rather talk all night on the phone to a parent than have a child miss his therapy for such a meeting! In theory this is a good idea but all of us who have worked for over 25 years knows that another meeting means missed therapy for some child. It's sad to realize that everyone cares more about what's on paper rather than what's actually being done in the therapy room. This situation is not unique to education but is true in other professional fields as well. One reason doctors do so much excessive testing and referrals is because they're afraid of being sued for malpractice. If we were more humane, honest, trusting, and loving towards each other then our society would not have had to legislate such laws that perpetuate an endless stream of meetings and paperwork!!! Enough said. Sorry to have rambled so long. Harriet SUBJECT: Re:New IDEA & Documentation Date: 97-08-18 20:41:50 EST From: Msc30 To x52hmcx (Molly's Mom).....Thankyou for commenting on my complaints about the excessive paperwork in my job as a public school S/L clinician. The most important aspect of my job IS the contact that I have with each of my students. I have made a difference in each child's life that I have worked with over the past 26yrs. I am a caring and sympathetic person and it definitely shows in the successes I have achieved with my students' communication skills and my dealings with their parents. I KNOW the importance of being able to communicate. It is the basis to succeeding in all aspects of life. I was wondering if you had read any of the other messages that have been posted recently about the unnecessary/redundant paperwork involved. Curious as to why I was the" Lucky" one to be on the receiving end of your remarks. I don't think the common theme of our messages has to be spelled out for you. Are you a working Mom? Do you encounter what we are all venting about.? I wish you lived in my district so you could fight for more s/l clinicians that we need. Our requests seem to be ignored. I hope Molly is having only successes in s/l. SUBJECT: Re:New IDEA & Documentation Date: 97-08-18 20:51:18 EST From: Msc30 Hiker.....Thankyou for your support. I was a little shocked that I was "singled" out for saying basically the same things that everyone else has been complaining about. I guess I shouldn't take it so personally, being that I am so uncaring and all. Besides, this computer business etc. is new to me. I guess I should expect anything. Thanks again. SUBJECT: Home/school visitors Date: 97-08-18 21:23:09 EST From: Msc30 I'm requesting info for a friend of mine who is a home/school visitor in a nearby district. Since I am a recent newcomer to message boards, I wasn't quite sure where to go for help. Can anyone give me any info about your district's home/school visitor/truancy....such as job description etc. or direct me to the "right" place for info in this area. Thankyou. :) SUBJECT: Re:Language Master Date: 97-08-18 22:27:20 EST From: LINDA17502 Language Master and cards -available at PCI Educational Publishing 1-800-594-4263. They also have a web site www.pcicatalog.com. SUBJECT: Re:New IDEA & Documentation Date: 97-08-18 22:58:01 EST From: Oops4444 Harriet and Msc30, Be careful. Although we all have our own opinions, and mine is with yours, Ratatat has a problem with venting our feelings openly on the boards and before you know it you will receive a TOS letter stating that your remarks are found hostile. Through out all of the messages posted on the spec. ed. board, I detect a problem with the teacher's having to defend themselves with parents and vice versa.I believe that both sides have a right to say what they want. The real problem with this board is that disagreements are looked down upon by Ratatat.If the parents were in the teacher's position, I think they would complain as well about all of the paperwork. It's really a shame that it has come to this when all you really want to do (and should do ) is teach. SUBJECT: Re:New IDEA & Documentation Date: 97-08-18 23:21:20 EST From: HarrietSLP Ooops, What you say is true. I belong to numerous listservs and newsgroups. Making personal attacks is called FLAMING and is against the rules on AOL.. Hopefully, Ratatat will read the post and remind us that discussion can take place without personal attacks. I was quite active on these boards last year (DVCMom) and she ( or WHEELS) usually would send us a reminder when things got out of hand. Thanks anyway. It's been nice visiting here again and I've printed up alot of therapy tips from some of the regulars here. Personally ( my own opionion) is that SLPs are one of the most dedicated and caring professionals in the educational/health-related workforce. I feel we really have a love for children and have a strong desire to help others. Those who don't are the ones that usually leave the profession after a few years and get out of the educational field. They don't feel it's worth the sacrifice it puts on your time and also the heavy STRESS is another reason. Sorry that this topic got so heated and out of hand. Hope everyone has a great school year! Harriet :o) SUBJECT: Re:New IDEA & Documentation Date: 97-08-19 08:20:19 EST From: ShelleyHL I realize that the paper work is a very necessary part of our job. I take the time to explain every form I fill out to the parents. Our team also spends considerable time explaining test results in plain English before the PPT meeting takes place. This gives the parents the time to think and really be helpful in making decisions. Now...the problem is that the administration of our school (which by the way is very supportive of our programs and staff) doesn't seem to see that these things take time. Last year our special ed staff was told that we HAD to make all of the file copies of the IEP's. That's when one staff member stood up and asked why the secretary couldn't do that. You can't imagine the flack we got. In our building we have one copying machine...sometimes there's a long line. We finally stood our ground and the special education secretary and building secretary do the copying. We were asked to type all future IEP's (ours are on computer) and asked, again, why a secretary couldn't do that. The compromise on that one was that if we could print neatly and legibly the document could be written. I want to create my own IEP's, but no time has been added to my schedule to allow for typing the reports. Plus, when I asked for a computer on which to do the work I was told that I couldn't request a computer for anything other than student use....Then the administrator told me I could type IEP's in the lab. Well I tried that once. I had third grade students reading over my shoulder and it was both inconvenient and noisy. So...I do my word processing at home. If word processing is part of my job, it seems to me that I should have the equipment with which to do it. So...it's not the paper work that gets to me, it's the lack of time during the work day in which to get it done, the lack of proper equipment and secretarial staff to complete the job. And I agree with a previous postee, there is a lot of reduncancy on theses forms. ShelleyHL SUBJECT: Documentation Date: 97-08-19 14:22:39 EST From: X52hmcx i have worked in the past as a public school SLP. I did not have the caseloads that some have mentioned in their posts, but like it or not, I did all my paperwork. I now have the priviledge of working in a university setting part-time. I still hold approximately 50 placement, IEP or exit meetings per year. I just look at the paperwork/documentation as part of my job. It does take time, but the majority of the time is still spent in actual therapy with clients. All jobs have there ups and downs. I still maintain that public school is still a great placeto have a job! Someone mentioned that it may be dangerous to vent in this forum because parents may misinterpret (or interpret) what is said. I just wanted to point out that paperwork if part of the job and if you don't like it get another position or attempt to change it. Check with your state's professional SLP organization to see if they are lobbying the legislature about caseload size. Check with your State public school organization to complain (well, maybe suggest) regarding state guidelines and abiblity to provide adequate services. All administrators are afraid of parents and parent advocacy groups. If parents knew that their voice could change policy, we could see change for the better. It will need to be at state or district level, not just your school. Work on your PR skills!! I may not have sounded like it in my last post, but I am on your side! I want great services for my child, I want a great enviornment to work and I want great possibilities for the students with whom I work! Hang in there and do your best! Thanks for the work you do for children, Molly's Mom SUBJECT: Re:Documentation Date: 97-08-19 20:29:43 EST From: TLVAIL Does anyone have all of their DEC forms on computer? We're exploring the possibility of having everything on computer with an automatic rollover feature to Medicaid forms. We'd also have a daily log on the computer and be able to download them to the medicaid secretary for billing. Each SLP would have a laptop and portable printer. I do most of my therapy in the classrooms and would much rather carry a laptop around than a whole bag full of files! It sounds like it would save a great deal of paperwork time (writing names over and over etc.) but I'm wondering if anyone has tried anything similar? Tracy SUBJECT: Re:New IDEA & Documentation Date: 97-08-20 06:01:29 EST From: Ratatat Oops, I'd like to clarify something. My "job" is to make sure that the rules of AOL are followed in this area to the best of my ability and to my best judgement. I'm not perfect, so at times I'm sure some think my judgement is flawed. AOL is not the internet, per se, in that it is a private service company, and as such has an agreement that members "sign" when they join. The Terms of Service include the rules of the road which *I* agreed to enforce on these boards when I was asked to be the area's host manager after receiving training in the TOS rules. Many areas of discussion can be emotional and whether or not they are problematic can be a judgement call. I do the best I can. What's important to me is that people do not "Flame" others as is done with such regularity on the internet newsgroups, and that we maintain a level of civility. So far, in the three years I've been involved in these boards, I think that this standard has been maintained on the most part. Your screen name is new to me, so I don't know what you are referring to regarding a TOS violation. I tend to be very sparse in my use of them. Perhaps you have changed your screen name? SUBJECT: Re:New IDEA & Documentation Date: 97-08-20 07:50:06 EST From: Msc30 Ratatat...I am new to the computer world and message boards(6-16-97). When I discovered the s/l area, I was so excited because I thought it would be great to exchange ideas and yes even "vent" about areas in our field that are unpleasant. I have read various messages in other areas,too, and have seen your screen name and advice quite frequently. I think that's great! Curious to know what your background is. I am a public school speech and language clinician in PA. I am about to begin my 27th yr. Thanks for responding. SUBJECT: Parent-Teacher Relations Date: 97-08-20 08:39:18 EST From: WTaylor134 As both a school Speech/Language Therapist and the parent of a (ADD) child who receives learning support, I just want to say that my own ability to work with the parents of my students has improved drammatically because of my own experiences as a parent. I have gained an understanding and compassion that I may not have had before. I know that there are many SLPs out there who might benefit from some empathy toward the fears and frustrations of parents. There is an old African proverb: When two elephants fight, it's the grass that gets trampled: (When teachers and parents don't work together, it's the child who suffers.) As the beginning of a new school year approaches, I would like to extend my hopes that everyone has a great year. SUBJECT: subglottic stenosis Date: 97-08-20 11:59:53 EST From: Barberent I just acquired a 2.5 yo child with subglottic stenosis and laryngomalacia. She is able to speak very well with the exception of some typical artic probs. Respiratory stridor is evident. One ENT told the parents that there was some vocal fold paralysis. I have not seen the medical reports. Can anyone explain these terms a little better to me? Also, how are these problems typically handled medically? Mom seems to get conflicting answers from the DRs. Thanks. SUBJECT: Re:New IDEA & Documentation Date: 97-08-20 13:02:20 EST From: Ratatat Msc, As the recent poster shared with us: "There is an old African proverb: When two elephants fight, it's the grass that gets trampled." I'm a mother who's child was the "grass" when she was in second grade. She's now going to high school and learning well and a marvelous person. It's been hard work for her, for her teachers and for me. But, as you know well worth it. You asked for my qualifications and these are they. I know they are enough for lots of people who want alphabets from colleges that are specific, but I'm quite confident that my field work and practicum more than make up for it. Also, I'm the managing Host and Librarian for this area, as well as a chat host in another area. I'm also the Parent Resource coordinator for a web site that's under construction, and involved with the information design for another web site in the plans; also I'm often an on-line coach for many parents. Off-line I am the President of our local CHADD Chapter, a member of a metro area network of ADD professionals and on a committee for CHADD National. And *all* of it is volunteer work. It gives me a great deal of pleasure. SUBJECT: New Speech Clinician Date: 97-08-20 15:46:31 EST From: Roniglover I am a new speech language clinician in the public school system and would like any advice or activities that you can share. I will be working at an elementary school level and mostly with general education students with disorders to include: language, articulation and fluency. I would appreciate any help. Thanks SUBJECT: Re:New Speech Clinician Date: 97-08-20 17:04:02 EST From: WVV Hiker Greetings, Welcome to the field :) My suggestion would be to hook up with a clinician who has been in your school district for some years, and have her/him as your mentor..... is this Fairfax County? large system....should be able to find a helping person, just to talk things over, consult with each other.....about students' needs, and new materials, tests., etc. This person would be valuable going over the forms and procedures that your school system uses. I enjoy talking with the others in my school district (from Alexandria Va. , now in NH) whenever we have a chance to meet, or even sometimes on the phone, I'll call a clinician, who has a school and population of students close to what my school is like... Actually, I have been doing this for (cough, cough) 23 years , and since you are newly out of school, I bet that there are many things that you could teach me! Keep confidence in yourself, you've had many years of learning, and do the best that you can :) Good luck, and enjoy your school! SUBJECT: Re: New Speech Clinician Date: 97-08-21 13:52:30 EST From: WTaylor134 Hello and welcome to a very rewarding yet challenging profession. I agree that hooking up with someone who can be a mentor is very good advice. Here are some other pearls of wisdom from someone who's been at it for awhile: 1. keep very good records (paperwork is a grind, but very necessary and often helpful). 2. don't try to reinvent the wheel - there are some excellent commercially available products out there in professional catalogs (if you don't have a lot of your own materials, see if you can borrow some to copy) I especially like products from Linguisystems, The Speech Bin, Communication Skill Builders, Super Duper School Co. 3. try to develop good collaborative relationships with teachers, reading specialists, learning support personnel, etc. This takes time, of course, but is well worth the effort! 4. enjoy and learn FROM the students whenever possible - keep your lessons relevant to real life/classroom needs 5. communicate frequently with parents - they can be a valuable member of your team. 6. Good Luck!! SUBJECT: Re: New Speech Clinician Date: 97-08-21 16:53:39 EST From: WVV Hiker Hey, this is fun giving advice....may continue ad infinitum :) Important people in the school, besides the other teachers and specialists, are the office secretary (ies), and the custodian......with their help, life is easier.....and with so many students having medical needs, the school nurse is a godsend too! Yes, great catalogs mentioned....you might be able to borrow some materials from the kindergarten program for temp. usage... excellent advice from Taylor - previous message.... / I also do activities outside of school , so that my life feels like it is more balanced.... that way, rough day at work, can do something relaxing, and refreshens the mind for the next day~~~~ most important - smile! SUBJECT: Re: New Scheduling idea Date: 97-08-21 19:00:29 EST From: TLVAIL Hi friends! I work in a Pre-K -2nd gr. school and am starting with 70 kids on my caseolad. We have self-contained classes inculding Preschool handicapped, ch. 1 preschool, Autistic, Self contained SI/LD, EMH, TMH as well as 2 resource programs. I've been mixing inclusion and pull-out for the past 5 yrs. but continued to have difficulties, primarily with pull-out due to teachers not sending, too large of groups, kids absent/unavailable etc. so I'm trying something new this year. Last Spring I asked my principal to try to group my kids into classes at each grade level. When I came in this yr. she handed me a list of all my children and their teachers!! She did the best she could and got them into 4 K classes, 5-1 classes and 2- 2nd gr. classes. I've set up my schedule to do all inclusion in the AM's- I'm in each class for plenty of time to cover the time on the IEP's of each child in the class. I have 2 afternoons reserved for testing, meetings, and consulting. The other 3 afternoons have blocks of time entitled- "scripting/mainstreaming preparation, K-Artic., K-language etc." I plan to use these blocks of time to work with individuals or small groups as needed. For example, I might work individually with a child while he is learning a new sound or concept, then stop and just see him in class. Or, I might have kids move in and out of the mainstreaming group as they master the setting in therapy (1st "in class sessions will be when I'm in there). I'm really excited about the possibilities and flexibility. What do you think? SUBJECT: Re: Aphasia Date: 97-08-21 19:47:36 EST From: R u Niz There is a student in our school who was diagnosed as cognitively disabled last year. He is 13 years old and has been receiving services for at least 8 years with a speech and language pathologist, physical therapist, and LD teachers. He is currently reading at about a 5th grade level , written language is very weak, communication skills are weak--he can talk , but he has to be "forced to interact with others", motor skills are weak, adaptive skills are low, math skills are extremely low---2nd grade level. His "label" was changed last year at a re-evaluation from severe learning disability to cognitive disability. His parents are fighting this diagnosis and filed for due process. Parents brought in the results of a private evaluation--school presented its evaluation---result: A third evaluation was done. The results of the third evaluation: Child has a learning disability and aphasia. My question: If the student's IQ results are in the range of mental retardation (his are) and adaptive skills are very low---Child's relative strength is in reading and major weakness in math ( we're talking about a lack of understanding of Basic numeration concepts--can't work with coins, tell time, add, subtract, etc)---where would aphasia fit in? Can aphasia result in an inability to perform nonverbal tasks? Can a person with aphasia be stronger in language related skills than in math skills? I don't think the due process situation has been completed yet, but I will probably have this student this year. I know he has a communication disorder--I suspect Williams Syndrome, although he also matches many of the descriptions of Asperger's. I am concerned about "mislabeling" this student and I don't know enough about aphasia. Any help would be greatly appreciated. BTW--I'm a Sp-Ed teacher, not an SLP. I read some of the previous posts. I never understood how an SLP could carry the caseload required. I am in awe of the SLP at my school. She is the most professional and inspiring teacher I've ever met. When we get back to school on Monday I will ask her the same questions and share your responses. Thanks! SUBJECT: Therapy suggestions Date: 97-08-21 20:45:21 EST From: Msc30 Any suggestions for improving social interactions for one of my 1st grade students with Aspergers(also visually impaired). This student relates much better with adults than with his peers. He very seldom initiates conversations, but does respond appropriately to questions. What classroom activities would you recommend? SUBJECT: Re:Previous messages Date: 97-08-21 20:50:05 EST From: WVV Hiker TLVail - I think you must have one awesome principal! Congratulations, and sounds like a great program you are developing for this year. R u ... thanks for being an appreciative teacher..... will be interesting to hear your SLP's responses. SUBJECT: Re:Therapy suggestions Date: 97-08-21 23:46:41 EST From: AHStreeter You could try some "Social Stories. " You make up script/stories for certain times of the day, (e.g. recess, ) and lay out a script that the child can learn through the story and follow. SUBJECT: Re: New Scheduling idea Date: 97-08-22 07:08:02 EST From: ShelleyHL I like the sound of your idea with scheduling. I'm going to try to do something like it...if it will work within my schedule. Unfortunately, my students aren't clumped into the same groups plus I have a prek class and third graders. The concept sounds terrific...Keep us posted on how it works. ShelleyHL SUBJECT: Re:Speaking of seminars... Date: 97-08-22 12:23:11 EST From: Limkefam My 11 year old daughter will be starting her sixth week doing the Lindamood-Bell ADD (auditory decrimination in depth) program. For the very first time she can see and hear the individual sounds within words. It has been very difficult for her and she has moved slowly but her reading has improved so much and her confidence is amazing. Her spelling has also improved a great deal, if she stops to think about endings in words and the other rules she has practiced 5 days a week. This direct instruction is what she needed to become successful in reading and writing. She comes out of the four hours invigorated and happy with herself. I dread having her go back to school for fear they will burst her new bubble. This program makes it totally safe for the student to make mistakes. I have been sitting in on many of her hours and think very highly of their methods. I'll answer any questions that you may have from a parents point of view. SUBJECT: Re:Speaking of seminars... Date: 97-08-22 15:22:11 EST From: Willsons "I dread having her go back to school for fear they will burst her new bubble." I have the same concern for a student I tutored this summer. (I am an SLP/Teacher of the Deaf.) I think he reached such a level of frustration due to being moved on in his reading/spelling before he was secure in his primary skills. I have held him at his level of competence, with lots of success experiences, and small tastes of what comes next. I have tried to communicate that to the other adults who help him; take it slow, allow him time to really learn each skill. I'm sure that is easier for me to do in a therapy setting than for the classroom teacher in a large group setting. SUBJECT: Lindamood-Bell Date: 97-08-22 19:48:40 EST From: HarrietSLP Does anyone know if Lindamood -Bell has a web site? I have gotten brochures from them before but can't locate one presently. I have an old Auditory Discrimination in Depth kit from the 70's and still utilize it occasionally in combination with other things. However, I've always wanted to attend a workshop. Has anyone on this board attended one of their workshops? If so, would you mind sharing your experience with us. Thanks, Harriet SUBJECT: Re:Lindamood-Bell Date: 97-08-23 09:43:19 EST From: Lmazzola Harriet: Lindamood Bell does have a web site, but it's under construction (and has been for the past several months) There is nothing on it, except telling you to come back soon! My daughter is currently in their program and I am on their mailing list. Let me know if you want me to look up where the training seminars are taking place. I have the last mailing that lists summer training - I think it may having listings through Sept., I'll have to check. Although I haven't gone through the training myself, YET, I hope to do so soon. - Lisa SUBJECT: Re: Aphasia Date: 97-08-23 16:13:08 EST From: TLVAIL Ru- You say he's reading on about the 5th gr. level. For a 13 yr. old that's not too shabby! It doesn't sound like he's an overall "flat" kid which we tend to see with cognitive delays (Educably Mentally Impaired where I come from). How is his reading comprehension? If he's just able to "say the words" when reading, then the language impairment may certainly be involved. I would talk to the psychologist who tested him to look at specific strengths and weaknesses within his test profiles in order to get a better understanding of him. Not so much for the label, but in order to figure out how best to teach him. I personally feel that when a child shows a great deal of variability in testing, even though the "end result" comes out in the cognitively impaired range, you need to do more to figure out what's going on. Often children with both visual spaital and auditory processing or language problems will score low- especially on the WISC-III. Will the label determine what program he goes in? IF this is your primary concern, the team should look at his specific skills rather than a label to determine appropriate placement. BTW- We've never used Aphasia to describe a disability in a child unless they've had a stroke or other infarct. Do others? SUBJECT: ESL/SI Date: 97-08-23 16:18:04 EST From: TLVAIL Help! I just found out that I have a beautiful 5 yr. old child on my caseload who speaks little English and will be in a regular kindergarten class. She was tested in her native language (Spanish) and qualifies for both SI and resource services with an identification of Preschool Delayed/Atypical. I speak no Spanish and the county has been trying to find a bilingual therapist to no avail. Since she'll be in a regular kindergarten, my gut tells me I could be of help to her but I'm not sure of the ethics involved. I'd certainly be better than no help at all- I think...Have any of you been in this situation? SUBJECT: Re:ESL/SI Date: 97-08-23 20:35:57 EST From: Willsons Yes. He was a third grader. I do not speak Spanish. I scheduled him with a friendly, lively group of peers. He learned quickly from watching and listening to them. I used pictures and written words in all our activities. We asked him to teach us Spanish words too, so we all experienced the challenge of learning another language. There are a few materials in the Speech & Language catalogs but many are either English or Spanish and not both. There is a First 1000 Words picture dictionary that combines both. I attempted to contact a nearby university ESL program for information, but before I made any progress there, this boy and his family suddenly moved back to their home country. I'm glad I acted quickly to try to provide support, and I hope I made a difference. SUBJECT: Re:ESL/SI Date: 97-08-24 08:38:37 EST From: ShelleyHL I hope your school district intends to provide some ESL instruction (which does not need to be done by someone who speaks Spanish), in addition to the special education instruction being provided. I guess I'm curious, even though this child was tested in her native language, how were goals written for her performance in English? We also know that children who are young and bilingual sometimes have difficulty learning the two languages, especially if a learning problem is present. In our school district, special education testing would not have been done until proficiency in English was demonstrated. The primary reason for this is that our speech paths are NOT ESL teachers and shouldn't be. Also, as I said, I suspect your goals are for English language skills...not Spanish speaking skills. In the meantime...I agree with the previous postee. Put this child in a small group. I do flexible grouping within the classroom for a child like this. In other words, I would have some children who are good speakers in the group as well as my speech kiddos. Encourage the team to set up a student buddy system for this child whereby other children are her buddies in play and learning, perhaps on a weekly basis. Use good photo pictures to develop vocabulary and involve the family. Perhaps all of them are learning English and this could be a resource to you. ShelleyHL SUBJECT: Re:ESL/SI Date: 97-08-24 12:41:28 EST From: VBSSLP The child that doesn't speak English but has been identified as speech/language impaired can be partly served by giving the parents language facilitation techniques and suggestions. She needs to get a good solid first language, Spanish, but reality says that English is the language of the school system so she will obviously need support learning English on top of any problems she has in her native language. Unfortunately our local school system doesn't provide ESOL services for kindergarteners because the philosophy is that regular K is such a language rich environment. I disagree with this, and feel they do need that support. Hiring a Spanish SLP is great for this kid, but what about the Chinese or Russian child, etc...so that can't be the answer for these situations in general........ SUBJECT: Re:ESL/SI Date: 97-08-24 20:45:41 EST From: Ratatat I forget the percentage of the population in the US that speaks Spanish as their native language, but it's high. Of course, in certain parts of the country its very high. You should know that the school really is required to provide the IDEA services in the child's native language... how else can she benefit? SUBJECT: Re:ESL/SI Date: 97-08-25 20:55:51 EST From: VBSSLP Ratatat....How is that realistic...can our system of public education afford to hire, supposing there were available, therapists, teachers, or even just native speakers of the 100's of language possibilities-I know there are 80 languages spoken in our county alone. We have shortages of SLP's period, much less one (or 80) that is bilingual. I think it would be great to be able to serve these kids that way, but I know that my system cannot find someone to fill all these diverse needs regardless of funds because they are not out there to hire in many instances.....i.e. the Huganese child, the remote dialect from Russia, Ebo, etc....Spanish is a relative piece of cake. We have to have alternate strategies to help these kids, so that regardless of the language that appears the next day, you have a way to do that in place. SUBJECT: Re:ESL/SI Date: 97-08-25 21:24:52 EST From: Smurph826 In NYC, we service children who speak many different languages and, as we all agree, there are just not enough bilingual therapists to handle the job. We, the monolingual therapists, take these children onto our caseloads legally by adding an Interim Service Plan (ISP) to their IEP's.This is a three page form that redefines their needs in terms of what we can do for them in English. This ISP remains on the IEP until a bilingual therapist can be located. This way we recognize that the need is for Spanish, Cantonese, Swahili, etc. but that until that therapist can be found, the English speaking therapist will provide service. The parents AND an interpreter MUST sign the ISP and, of course, if the parents or the Board of Ed locate the needed therapist, the ISP is removed. It's not the perfect answer to the situation but some help is better than none. SUBJECT: new scheduling idea Date: 97-08-25 22:11:55 EST From: Lolli04 I like your idea! I wrote a while back (help! huge caseload) about my scheduling problems. Thought someone might like to know how my situation turned out. I wrote a letter to the Superintendent and the School Board President outlining my caseload and how it was surpassing the ISBE's(Illinois State Board of Ed) limit on service delivery units.(mild=1, mod.=2,sev=3) Illinois' limit is 100 units and I am starting out the year with 100 units and only 56 students. Usually my caseload grows to 80 students. Anyway, I then called each school board member, two who have SI students, and asked if they had been spoken to about our problem. Today was our first day back, and our Pupil Services Person tells me they hired someone for 3 and 1/2 days! I sure wish I would have grouped my kids last year. Now they are already in scattered classrooms! I'll have to be creative. I'm excited about getting into some classrooms finally, at least for my severely language/learning disabled kids. The teachers will be glad too, I hope. SUBJECT: Re:ESL/SI Date: 97-08-26 15:24:43 EST From: ShelleyHL At least you have an interpreter. In many school districts, especially those with low incidences of bilingual students, there are no interpreters. SUBJECT: Re:new scheduling idea Date: 97-08-26 16:26:08 EST From: X52hmcx Way to go Lolli!! I am so glad that the "powers that be" responded to your sharing the facts! Hope all goes well this school year. SUBJECT: Re:ESL/SI Date: 97-08-26 16:43:33 EST From: Smurph826 Not to give the wrong impression, we have to find our own interpreter. We can use another teacher or administrator, family member or acquaintance. It must be shown that the reason for the ISP was fully explained to the parent in his native language and that the parent understands his/her options. SUBJECT: Re:ESL/SI Date: 97-08-26 22:17:15 EST From: Ratatat < Ratatat....How is that realistic...can our system of public education afford to hire, supposing there were available, therapists, teachers, or even just native speakers of the 100's of language possibilities-I know there are 80 languages spoken in our county alone. > I'm just repeating what the federal law says! If your school can't follow it then they can request a waiver from the state. If the won't follow it, I hope one of the foreign speaking parents doesn't figure out her child's rights are to be taught in a way that he/she can understand. SUBJECT: individual vs group Date: 97-08-27 15:31:04 EST From: Bre5 I would like to get the opinion of speech therapists. My son is almost 10 and has had the same CELF-R scores for 3 years, except for going down this past year in Receptive Language from 74 to 63 (score, not percent). His Expressive stayed the same at 70, and the Goldman-Friscoe results were "severe unintelligbility in conversation". He has also been diagnosed with severe CAPD and both dyspraxia and dysarthria have been suggested. He has only been getting group therapy twice a week in school with kids who have more mild problems. I have decided that it is time to ask for more intensive individual therapy to try to get better results. (He is a cooperative boy and manages to get average grades with lots of help at home, and kids and teachers like him.) In your opinion, is this a child who needs individual speech therapy? How could I prove that he needs this? I feel that he is not getting what he needs and will continue to not improve if he just keeps on with more of the same. I know his school SLP is already overworked and it would be hard to fit this in, so I'm not sure what to do. I would also like to know if anyone's school has afterschool speech therapy so that students don't have to be pulled from the classroom. I was thinking of trying to request that. Why couldn't speech therapists start work later than teachers and instead be there after school for scheduled times, at least for kids who ned multiple speech therapy sessions? SUBJECT: Re:ESL/SI Date: 97-08-27 18:47:53 EST From: TLVAIL And what should the school system do if no bilingual therapists can be found? We are in a relatively rural area. The special Ed. director has tried to contract with someone but has been unable. Thanks for all your suggestions though- Our plan thus far is to work as a team- the ESL teacher, Kindergarten teacher, Resource teacher and SLP- Between us we should be able to help. BTW- the child's speech/language eval was in spanish but the goals are for English. For the IQ testing, the directions were interpreted. Her educational goals are also in English. I have a hard time with this because I think it's unfair to label a child as handicapped if indeed a linguistic or cultural barrier exists but I also want to help this child in any way we can. I know that as children learn a 2nd language we often see a lag in the first language. Is it better to wait until they've been in the country for 2 yrs. before testing and "waste" presious time if the child does have a disability or is it better to go ahead and work with them when they're young???? SUBJECT: Re:individual vs group Date: 97-08-27 18:55:28 EST From: TLVAIL Dear Bre- I don't think the issue should be whether you're child is getting individual or group therapy but whether or not his goals are being met. If they are not, you should ask to meet with his SLP and discuss the reasons. If your son has a great deal of motor involvement, he needs to have small units of practice on a daily basis. Does the SLP give you things to work on at home? Whatever you do, please approach this with a partnership/problem solving approach with your sons therapist. He will benefit if the two of you have a good working relationship. SUBJECT: Re:individual vs group Date: 97-08-27 19:27:14 EST From: TAWhit I think it's very important to remember that the CELF is NOT designed to measure progress. The authors of these tests are very firm about that and the tests are being abused when used to measure progress. They are merely instruments to initially quantify the problem and make a diagnosis. Progress SHOULD be measured in classroom success, not a ridiculous retest score. You are being misled if that is how the SLP is determining your child's progress, unless she/he is teaching directly to the test. Terrie SUBJECT: Re:new scheduling idea Date: 97-08-27 20:53:56 EST From: LINDA17502 Lolli, I am also an SLP who works in an Illinois school district. In the district I work at, all the sp ed teachers have caseload limits, except for SLPs. I have a 1993 speech/language manual from ISBE which lists max units of severity. I was under the impression (per reports from SLPs in other area school districts) that the max units were only a recommendation and that school districts may choose to ignore them. Also, I tried to call the # on the manual to get an updated version and no one answers. Do you have a current phone #? If you have any further info as to whether ISBE max units are a recommendation vs. requirement, please advise. Thanks in advance. SUBJECT: Re:individual vs group Date: 97-08-28 09:56:15 EST From: ShelleyHL Dear Bre, There are some missing pieces to your profile. If your child's cognitive piece shows significant delays than he may be doing the best possible for himself regardless of individual or group therapy forums. If this is a child with very average overall cognitive (intelligence) than you have a different story. Also, as previously posted, has he been making appropriate gains on the goals on his IEP? Standardized measures, such as the CELF are usually used for diagostic purposes, not as standards for progress. However, I should add that your child has been keeping pace with the demands of the test as he has aged. In other words, in a year, his standard scores have remained constant. I would be much more concerned if his scores had dropped 15 point or more. Look at the IEP goals and progress on them. SUBJECT: Implications for speech Rx Date: 97-08-28 16:29:40 EST From: Msc30 Hi fellow SLPs, I'm back in the swing of things once again. I had posted a message in late July about testing suggestions for one of my students. This 4th grade student(CA=9-2) was referred for a pysch eval. due to ongoing academic difficulties particularly in the area of reading and listening comp. Results of her WISC-III are within the low average range of intellectual functioning....V=82, P=96,full scale=87. Curriculum based assessment in rdg. indicates instructional level at approximately grade 3. This student does not meet the diagnostic criteria of the PA. Dept. of Special Ed. to be considered exceptional. Listening comprehension weaknesses at this time have not affected achievement. A speech & language eval was requested to assess the possibility of language based difficulties. So far I've administered the following: The Listening Test, Language Processing Test-revised, Test for Auditory Comprehension of Language-revised, and a language sample. Her receptive language is age appropriate as measured on the TACL-R. Many of you suggested The Listening Test, these are her standard scores: Main Idea=76, Details=79, Concepts=83, Reasoning=65, Story comp.= 83 and Total=74. Average range is 85-115. Results of the LPT-R (average85-115ss): Associations=59, Categories=72, Similarities=91, Differences=101, Multiple Meanings= 63, Attributes= 63and overall total =76. A language sample indicates age appropriate artic, grammar, and syntax. She is able to maintain a topicof conversation; however, frequent use of filler words such as "stuff", "um" are evident in conversational speech. Also some disorganized thoughts are noted in spontaneous speech. I would appreciate any comments regarding my intent to enroll her in s/l program(agree/disagree), suggestions for IEP goals, and the need for any additional s/l testing.( such as WORD test or Test of Problem Solving). Her MDE is next Friday. Thankyou! SUBJECT: Re:individual vs group Date: 97-08-28 20:05:41 EST From: Bre5 To ShellyHL and TAWhit, Thanks for your responses. What I understood from your posts is that the CELF does not measure progress, and that he is improving if his scores stay the same because of the peers he is measured against? Does that mean he can never get better than his starting score and her job is to make sure he at least stays the same as he is continuing to be compared against his peers? My question is why would the SLP test him every year with the CELF and other tests? Does this mean, also, that the "severe" category he is in is all I can hope for? I understand that my son has made progress, definitely!, but I am hoping he will get out of the "severe" category and into the normal range for speech. His IQ scores show him to be above average in all visual skill subtests and below average in verbal subtests so that his overall score is average. Shouldn't that mean that he should be able to attain an average speech and language ability with enough work and therapy? SUBJECT: Re:Tongue Thrust Date: 97-08-28 20:35:17 EST From: Rosie495 Hi MM! I have used a program called "Swallow Right". I can't remember the author off hand. It was good--had a children's version and an adult therapy program. Hope this helps! Colleen SUBJECT: Re:individual vs group Date: 97-08-28 22:36:57 EST From: HarrietSLP If there is a statistically significant gap between verbal IQ and performance IQ with performance IQ being the higher score then this is usually a good indicator of an auditory processing disorder and language learning disability.. Please scroll down on this Board until you get to central auditory processing disorders (CAPD). In our state if there is not a significant discrepancy between language skills and IQ ( -16 points) then language is assumed appropriate for his expected level of performance and he would not qualify for language services. If a central auditory processing disorder is suspected then he should be referred to an audiologist who does this type of testing. His articulation disorder is another story. How long has he been in therapy? Is his oral structure and function adequate for speech purposes? A good oral - peripheral examination is a definite MUST. Does he have dysarthria or apraxia? A lot of unanswered questions which makes it difficult to do an on-line assessment. I suggest you meet with your child's SLP and I feel sure she should be able to answer your questions for you. ~Harriet SUBJECT: Starting services inthe fall Date: 97-08-29 16:28:30 EST From: MareCash Here's a question to all the school-based SLP's out there. Do you all take a week or two in the beginning of the school year to do all the "stuff" that goes along with our jobs (evaluating/screening new students, screening Kindergarteners, observing students in classrooms, setting up schedules, etc). The resource room teachers in my building already have their schedules set - school starts next week. Of course, they are not allowed over 20 students on their caseloads - I have 73. The teachers in my school are not happy that I don't plan to start therapy until all my duties are done - probably a good two weeks after school starts. The other therapists in our district also take these two weeks, but the person who had the job before me only took a couple of days. How she did that I don't know. Last year was my first year i nthis school and there were grumblings tehn, but they let it go because it was my first year adn I knew none of the kids. I haev called a speech dept meeting so we can maybe come up with a policy for this, but aI am interested in what other districts are doing. Thanks for any help! SUBJECT: Re:individual vs group Date: 97-08-29 17:33:34 EST From: TAWhit Bre5 - I don't know why the SLP would give the CELF every year unless she is just not well versed in the use of standardized instruments. I work in a huge school district and provide assistance to over 50 SLPs in my area and still have to preach this to many of them yearly. Part of it is comfort level. The SLP may feel she needs to quantify progress with a number. Not sure. Re: Will the score always be low? Will your child ever get out of the severe range? I think that you, the SLP and the teachers who work with your child should set a long range goal or outcome for your child. I wouldn't tie it to a score on a test. I would expect it to be an educational outcome such as: Reading and understanding grade level science textbooks. Explaining grade level science concepts. Reading on grade level with X amount of individual assistance. The SLP needs to work on things that will make your child successful in those academic areas. The things she works on need to be the language-based things that will contribute to your child's success - preferably language learning strategies that will cross academic subjects. When your child is able to do the work with a minimum of outside support and can maintain average grades in those classes - THEN I would say the language impairment is mild to non-existent. That is not to say that in the future other class and curriculum demands may not tax your child's language system. If that occurs, your child should immediately be pulled back in for service. Language demands change from class to class and teacher to teacher. I know few language learning disabled children who are "fixed" just as children who exhibit learning disabilities don't get "fixed". They learn strategies to get through the material. Sorry so long. Terrie SUBJECT: Re:Starting services inthe fal Date: 97-08-29 19:36:51 EST From: ShelleyHL Normally I start my regular services the day after Labor day. Our students began school on August 27. However, I just broke my foot...in school and it's slowing me down a bit. I will start on Thursday instead. I have already met with some students and screened all new entries. I have also done all of my PPT scheduling for the year. I try to start as soon as possible. I see as many students as possible before I set up my regular schedule. SUBJECT: Re:individual vs group Date: 97-08-29 19:39:54 EST From: ShelleyHL I agree with Terrie. Set reasonable, attainable goals for your child with some long term ones to help you define your direction. This will be a good way to chart your program and set progress points. Think about what you really want this child to DO. I only use standardized tests for triennial reviews and in some severe cases, not even for those. SUBJECT: Re:individual vs group Date: 97-08-29 19:53:14 EST From: Bre5 Terrie, If the SLPs in your district don't test, how do they know if the therapy is being successful? Maybe it's the goals I need to work on, like the examples you gave. My son has the same goals every year, such as "He will increase the production of k, g, s, z in his sentences." How would you measure if this goal was successful? His goals are repeated the next year along with the same or lower CELF score. Also, my son's CELF-R RECEPTIVE score just went up for the first time ever after 8 weeks of the Fast ForWord computer therapy. It went from overall score of 63 (May 97, severe impairment, 1st percentile) to overall score of 82 (Aug. 97, mild impairment, 12th percentile). Do you feel that it is invalid to use a test in this way, to show if a certain therapy had any results? What do you think are the chances that this "improvement" will carry over into real life? SUBJECT: Re:Starting services inthe f Date: 97-08-29 20:33:02 EST From: Toezap We (meaning our district's SLPs) were told several years ago by our state coordinator for SLP services, that our IEP dates were to start on the first day of school and so were our services. She suggested that we have several very large groups each day, so that we could say we were serving the kids, then do the work on establishing the schedule and all the other duties with the rest of the day. I just don't think you can even do that until after the first few days of chaos. I began by visiting all the classrooms in which I had kids and spending a few minutes with them at "organizational times" (ie when they weren't doing direct teaching). All our referrals now go through a building -based review team before they are accepted for testing, so that slows up our need to test everyone right away...with kindergarteners, unless something severe, we usually suggest the teacher take a few weeks to get to know them before referring. All I can suggest from experience is that you try to make some sort of contact with the students as soon as possible and document it through your normal attendance taking procedures. SUBJECT: Re: beginning of school year Date: 97-08-29 20:47:12 EST From: WVV Hiker Greetings! The school year has begun this past week. It will indeed take me several weeks to "get organized".... have spent the time so far xeroxing IEPs that I never received from the Sp Ed. teacher on a child's grade level, sending paperwork on students who moved over the summer, had a consultant visit for my Hearing Impaired student, starting the Medicaid forms to record my interactions pertaining to each child, etc. In my school district, we screen all the first graders for their hearing.... which I will do by myself for about 125 students...it is better to complete that, as once start therapy schedule, won't have "extra time" needed for large screening numbers... we have tried teams, and go to each other school, but either approach takes time. Scheduling the students takes awhile, as I wait until Title 1, and other services decide their slots of time.... as needed....and that takes several days to check with each teacher involved to make sure there is no hidden reason not shown on the classroom schedule why that time isn't good..... Sometimes, the classroom teachers might adjust their classroom schedules after the first week of school to teach the subjects in the best time slot....Once I let a teacher know the therapy time, then I don't like to change it, so would rather take a little more time developing my schedule, and have it be accurate, than to need to change it after a week or so.... I may take some of my more severe students sooner to check on their present levels, but overall, I expect therapy to start in about 2 weeks. The beginning of the year does take time (our IEPs are done in May/June), but with giving oneself a bit of time to get organized, it seems to pay off down the road. Meetings with new parents, observations, etc. are some of the beginning of the year activities to start up therapy... Wishing you a good school year :) SUBJECT: Re:ESL/SI Date: 97-08-29 22:39:36 EST From: VBSSLP Regarding what the law says.........I understand that. What I am trying to say is that those of us there, in the trenches, serving large caseloads etc., etc., etc., are always looking for ways we can help the kids we have right then, right there, and developing some strategies to deal with languages other than English until our administration can locate that SLP to deliver services in the Yoruba language. The last thing in the world I want to do is deny any child their rights, break the law. The first thing I want to do is help the child. SUBJECT: Re:individual vs group Date: 97-08-30 15:49:16 EST From: TAWhit Bre5 - SLPs know they are making progress if what they are doing has an impact on classroom performance - which is the ultimate goal for all children in the educational system. I agree that an objective written as you described it is immeasurable and will be repeated every year if it is not quantified in a way that CAN be measured. An articulation objective should not just say "increase" but should outline what that increase should be - Will the child master it at the sentence level with 80% accuracy? Will he master it while doing oral reading in the classroom with 90% accuracy? Words like increase and decrease on IEPs are useless if there isn't a tight way to measure progress. Maybe if your child's IEP were written with tighter objectives and criterion for mastery - you and the SLP would feel more comfortable measuring progress without a test and the IEP WOULD change every year. Terrie SUBJECT: Re:individual vs group Date: 97-08-30 15:52:02 EST From: TAWhit Bre5 - And the next part of your question. I DON'T believe that test should be used to measure progress. And carryover into your child's real life needs to be PLANNED - even to the point of writing IEP objectives that deal with carryover of learned skills into the classroom environment. Children would not be language disordered if they could carry over skills without help. Children without language disabilities don't need help with this - our kids do - and they need to be taught to do it. Carryover does not happen by itself. Terrie SUBJECT: starting services in fall... Date: 97-08-31 00:15:02 EST From: Beanie7783 MareCash..I know the SLP's that have regular Ed. caseloads where I work do not start for at least a few weeks..If you are geting bad vibs from the teachers..you may need to talk to your principal, get her/his support and understanding ..then have a teacher inservice ..including your job responsiblities and starting times..I service special ed...if I am familiar with my classes I'll start the 2nd week..many of my teachers do not want to see SLP's the first week! I don't think 2 or 3 weeks is an unreasonable time to start with a large caseload...good luck..Beanie SUBJECT: Re:starting services in fall Date: 97-08-31 11:27:26 EST From: TAWhit Unless your student's IEPs start the third week of school, they technically should be getting service immediately. Won't be a problem until you find a parent who knows their child's rights. The PR's not too great for the SLP and their overall program when they feel the need to take several weeks to get started. Just a thought - Terrie SUBJECT: Re:Starting services inthe fal Date: 97-08-31 12:57:11 EST From: TLVAIL This is a tough issue- In the past, when I worked in schools where the SLPs did hearing screenings, we often didn't start therapy until 3 weeks after school started. I don't think it's fair, or legal, to say a child is going to be seen a certain frequency of time on the IEP then not start for 3 weeks after school is in session. I've tried to make my schedule with bog blocks of time open to do things needing to be done and still start therapy. I work in the classrooms and this year the teachers asked me to wait a week so they could get their schedules worked out and the kids into a routine. I still went in but mostly observed my kids and helped out where needed. SUBJECT: Implications for Speech Rx Date: 97-08-31 17:14:30 EST From: Msc30 Any ideas or suggestions for my message posted 8/28? Thankyou... you're input will be truly appreciated. :) SUBJECT: kindergarten sceening Date: 97-08-31 17:59:35 EST From: Vghoops hi, I'm currently faced with screening 6 kindergarten classes in a short amount of time. Does anyone have a good and QUICK screeening tool that that has proved sucessful? I would appreciate any input you might have. Thanks, Sharon SUBJECT: Re:Implications for speech Rx Date: 97-09-01 08:29:31 EST From: ShelleyHL Without knowing the child...it looks like you have a youngster who is having difficulty with language USE. The ability to see relationships between words (look at your LPT scores) is low, even for this child's ability it seems. Re: the TACL-R, I believe that it is only normed to 8-11. Anyway...how does this child do in classroom activities involving stringing ideas together (e.g. brainstorming on a topic, outlining similarities and differences, comparing and contrasting, predicting based on information given)? My guess is that these would be areas of difficulty and if they are they would go along with your testing and could be the basis for your goals. Also, look at rate of response time in the classroom. Some kiddos who use fillers are buying themselves time to formulate their responses. You may need to help make some classroom modifications to help make this child more successful. One question...does this child have a history of ear problems? Just a thought. ShelleyHL SUBJECT: Re:Implications for speech R Date: 97-09-01 10:33:57 EST From: Msc30 Dear Shelley, Thankyou for your input. The TACL-R is normed thru 9-11. Also this student does not have a history of ear infections. She passed her recent hearing screening at school. Last years's teachers report that receptively she appears to understand directions or input but the output is not always pertinent to the input. She also needs additional time to process verbally presented info before responding. On the Wechsler Individual Achievement Test the student had difficulty with inference and detail ?s, sequencing, and comparing & contrasting ?s. I guess my confusion here is it a reading problem or a language based difficulty impacting these areas of reading. This sweet girl is in that "gray" area, where she doesn"t qualify for Spec. Ed. placement , such as learning support/resource room , but has a page of "needs" in order to be more successful in the school setting. Thak you again. SUBJECT: Re:Starting services inthe f Date: 97-09-01 15:07:46 EST From: Mdmk19 We dont start seeing the children for therapy until October 1. This gives us enough time to screen, evaluate, meet with parents, develop I.E.P.'s, schedule etc. SUBJECT: Have a great year Date: 97-09-01 15:42:51 EST From: MareCash Thanks to everyone's advice on starting services. It is interesting to seehow much diversity there is even on this small board. I am going to suggest a district meeting of SLP's - there are 9 of us, to come up with some sort of policy. Anyways, I go back to work tomorrow. And to those of you joining me, and to those who have already returned - have a great year. I also wanted to share a couple of resources I recently purchased that I think are great: Books Are For Talking Too - Comm SkillsBuilders Language LEssons in the Classroom - Thinking Publications Phonogroup - Thinking Publications Storymaking - Thinking Publications SUBJECT: Re:Starting services inthe f Date: 97-09-01 16:35:19 EST From: TAWhit Wow - Oct 1 to start therapy! That's an incredible break in service. You are asking for trouble. SUBJECT: Re:Implications for speech R Date: 97-09-01 17:33:15 EST From: ShelleyHL It looks like this youngster has difficulty even when reading is not needed. Look at your test results on the LPT and the Listening Test...where no reading is involved. When reading is involved the skill usage is probably worse. Look at some teacher notes and talk to the teachers to see how this child does in small and large group discussions. SUBJECT: Re:starting services in fall.. Date: 97-09-01 18:30:18 EST From: MRogers140 Teachers historically think we don't work. I have been a public school speech-language pathologist for most of 33 years and it has always been a problem. I advise new therapist to always walk fast and carry a clip board and never sit down in the lounge except to eat. Also don't let people hear you making phone calls that aren't related to school. People assume if they come in the lounge and you are sitting you have been there all day. Also, following someone that everyone liked, who was at a school for a long time is hard and it takes time to be accepted. It is not the same as if you were just another grade teacher. SUBJECT: Re:Implications for speech R Date: 97-09-01 18:37:46 EST From: MRogers140 I think that you have a language problem that is impacting on reading. Reading is after all language inprint. I think if you address these problems as language problems it will make a positive impact on this students educational performance and that is what you want to do. SUBJECT: Re:Starting services inthe f Date: 97-09-01 21:34:40 EST From: Lolli04 I'm with mdmk19. I don't start therapy until around October 1. I spend the first 4 days of school at pre-school screenings and also 2 days at the end of September. In between, I screen all Kindergartners (8 classes), all NEW students transferring from another district, and any students I have on a rescreen list from the previous year due to developmental errors the year before. I have one building of 950 students and one of 550 students, and a VERY HUGE mobility rate. Most teachers end the year with less than half of their starting class list! I do A LOT of screening! Anyway, after all that screening, I have to test the ones that qualify, and hold the MDC/IEP meetings and then schedule all of these little ones! I haven't run into a parent who has complained yet, but where I am, not many know their rights. It is really sad in a way. My situation would be better, I'm sure, if some parents put pressure on our special ed department. Oh well. SUBJECT: Re:new scheduling idea Date: 97-09-01 21:55:24 EST From: Lolli04 Linda17502, Sorry it took so long to respond. Busy with beginning of the year stuff (getting to bed early!) I was referring to the 1993 ISBE manual, I think it is the latest one. I don't believe those are mandates, probably recommendations like you've been told. I just think it worked for me to quote the service delivery units because two of our school board members have Speech students and they are two of my most involved parents. They knew when their children were having speech and when they were missing it but they didn't know it was because we were overloaded. Their students would come to me and say my mom asked me why I didn't have speech yesterday. My replies of "I was at a meeting, I was testing someone, I was at preschool screenings, etc. satisfied the parents because they didn't realize that if we weren't so understaffed, I would be able to make up these sessions with their students. When they became informed of our caseloads, they understood. Thank goodness two board members had SLI children! SUBJECT: Recommended publication Date: 97-09-01 23:25:09 EST From: VCB44 I would like to add a publication to your list. I purchased this book at our state convention in April and hope to use it a lot during this school year. I heard a fantastic presentation by the authors a couple of years ago, before they published the book. Their book is just out and I think it is really going to be very useful, particularly for use in the classroom. Language Strategies for Children - from Thinking Publications SUBJECT: Re:Starting services inthe f Date: 97-09-02 05:52:44 EST From: Ratatat I wonder why schools seem to set up IEP to have their annual reviews all at the same time? Wouldn't staggering them somehow help with this crush of reviews/re-evals/screenings? In our district all screening for incoming/new students is done sometime during the summer, either just after school gets out, or just before classes begin. There is one site for all students in the district and screening is done by all SLPs in the district during a one or two day period. I would worry about a delay too, because ALL students with an IEP are supposed to have one in force on the first day of school, and no delay in services is acceptable, or permissible according to IDEA. SUBJECT: Re:Starting services inthe f Date: 97-09-02 16:42:57 EST From: ShelleyHL I'm just curious...how many of you out there still screen all kindergarten students at the start of school? I haven't done that in years...no time. I do ask the kindergarten teachers to give me a list of the kiddos they want me to screen. They do a terrific job. After all, they are communicating with the students everyday. Also, it saves me talking to the abundant numbers of very average students. Our IEP's state that therapy will begin the first week of September. Since school starts before Labor Day that usually gives my about one week to do the scheduling and rescheduling to get started. We are very up front with the parents about this...no surprises. Plus, I do see larger groups and do some observations and consultations during that first week of school. SUBJECT: Re:Starting services inthe f Date: 97-09-02 17:09:21 EST From: SpchDr <> I understand the concept behind this, BUT....is it feasible? In an ideal world, there would be enough slps to go around; caseloads would be manageable; schedules would be written WITHOUT the benefit of white-out the first day of school; paperwork would reflect what we need to keep track of progress and not what is needed for a possible due process hearing; there would be time built-in to allow for new screenings/testing/mdc's/teacher and parent consultations; kids could actually be seen for therapy in groups no larger than three.......wait, I'm starting to get giddy here. I just see no sense in breaking one's back to adhere to the letter of the law, when the spirit needs time to get going. Granted, October seems a little late to me, too, but then, I don't work there or have any idea what circumstances they face. I always tried as hard as I could to get things under control and into the schedule as quickly as possible, getting it down to one week by the time I left the last public school I was in. You could hold the IEP's in front of my nose (like a carrot), but I just couldn't go any faster than that, not and do a thorough job. Where I work now, the supervisors decide the class lists and assign therapists (speech, ot, pt) to each class before we even get there. The first week of work is spent on in-services and teacher-therapist planning times. (I work in a birth-5 private agency that contracts with local school districts, btw.) Wouldn't it be great if the public schools would schedule a week before school started as "workshop" and/or "screening" days for getting a handle on paperwork, meeting with teachers, developing a beginning schedule, screening new students? I love the idea of a team-screening approach at one school that was mentioned earlier....how wonderful! I wonder if spreading annual reviews throughout the year would be all that feasible; you'd still have to meet at the end of the school year to decide what to do next year anyway, wouldn't you? Or could that be done away with? If that was the case, it would make a BIG difference at the end of the year. So many questions; so little time.......You know, the first person who figures this stuff out will be a millionaire, don't you? AND hold our undying gratitude....... Good luck all! Dona SUBJECT: Re:Starting services inthe f Date: 97-09-02 17:37:06 EST From: LNOVOTNY When I was in the schools, we too took 2 weeks to set our schedule. We had 90 kids on our caseload...we had MANY teachers to meet with to see when the kids could leave class. And then this would be changed agian when other conflicts arose such scheduling other resources. Yes our IEPs stated the first day of school for services to be deliverd...HOWEVER, it is part of services to take care of many other speech duties. There is no way we could have stated on the IEP that services would start 2 weeks into the schoolyear. Good luck. I remember these ongoing conflicts every school year. Get ready for the end of the school year conflict: Services to end on the last day of school...yet massive paperwork to be completed, filed, and parties to work around! Laura :) P.S. - Even with all the headaches, the schools are great place to be employed!! SUBJECT: Re:Starting services inthe f Date: 97-09-02 17:46:24 EST From: Toezap We used to do something called the DIAL-R in the Spring for those registered to enter Kindergarten in the fall. It was first done county-wide with SLP's going around in teams to different schools. The DIAL-R consisted of motor, concept and speech-language screening, and was a source of identifying children with special problems, developmental delays and those needing speech-language services. Those kids were subsequently plugged into summer speech and pre-Kindergarten classes. Do to complaints about missed therapy time, we then switched to doing it at our own schools for 1 day, and the Kindergarten teachers at those schools assisting in testing. This past year we did not have funding for summer speech/preK for those kids, therefore we didn't screen. I have mixed feelings about this, it was nice to have the incoming Kindergarteners needing speech already identified and paperwork started, however, I'm not sure teacher referral is not just as valuable. We now take all teacher referrals to the building-based team for consideration, which can recommend the teacher wait a few weeks to get more familiar with the student if the problem does not appear very severe. This of course is a matter of getting sufficient information on the student from the teacher, and cuts down on the teachers who refer six or seven children in their class the first week of school. Real world or not, we've had it stressed that IEPs are to be written to start the first day of school, and services are to be provided from that point on. I had a roommate at a conference I went to year before last who said her district was having to provide compensatory services (on Saturdays none the less!) for time the students in question missed from therapy. I believe this particular case involved a situation where a child was coming from another state or at least system, and there was a lagtime of a couple months till they were served. But..I think we need to consider what could happen.....! SUBJECT: Oral Motor Essentials Date: 97-09-03 00:27:59 EST From: DebOnWeb30 Has anyone attended one of the Charlene Boshart "Oral Motor Essentials" workshops? Was it valuable? SUBJECT: Re:Starting services inthe f Date: 97-09-03 07:31:48 EST From: TAWhit Many of the SLPs in our district do the exact same thing, Shelly (where are you from?) - test teacher referrals from Kindergarten as soon as possible (not even screen, if the teacher refers -> test) and then do screenings later in the year (bit by bit) or do group screening by hanging out with groups in the classroom and getting teacher input. There is no all-fire hurry to get them done unless there's a concern. And we also have our IEPs spread out throughout the year. I think it would insane to have 75 IEPs due in the same month (or week?). Yes, sometimes an IEP that was rewritten in February has to be done again in May or June depending on the child's situation, but not as a rule. Terrie SUBJECT: Developemental Speech Date: 97-09-04 00:00:23 EST From: MarthaDen Does anyone have a developmental list of the sounds that are use by children. If so, could you E-mail a copy of that list. I am concerned about my 2 year old neighbor boy. Really, I am more concerned about his mother. I think she is expecting too much too soon. she needs to understand that speech is developmental .Thanks for any help or reference you can provide SUBJECT: Earobics at CAPD conference Date: 97-09-04 08:23:11 EST From: Concepts1 Cognitive Concepts, Inc. invites everyone to stop by the Earobics exhibit booth at the upcoming "Symposium on the Assessment & Management of CAPD" October 17-18, 1997 at the Ramada Plaza Hotel in Greenville, NC. The conference, sponsored by the Department of Communication Sciences & Disorders at East Carolina University, will feature several outstanding guest faculty who will discuss the scientific foundations of CAPD, intervention strategies, and the scientific basis of clinical approaches. All in attendance at the conference will have the opportunity to view and experience "hands-on" the Earobics Auditory Development & Phonics programs. Dr. Jan Wasowicz, the program's creator, will be present to answer questions about the theoretical and scientific basis of the Earobics programs. Please stop by and say hello. For registration information contact the Office of Allied Health Education at (919) 816-5205. For more information about Earobics visit www.cogcon.com SUBJECT: Re:Developemental Speech Date: 97-09-04 17:04:00 EST From: ShelleyHL I actually have a number of good developmental speech charts, but they are at school, not at home. I will tell you that at the age of two some children are only beginning to combine words and for some their sound development is still in the developing stage for many sounds. Mastery of p, b, m, t, d would be expected. There could be tons of other mistakes, but it would depend on what they were as to whether or not they are o.k. For example, if a two year old was substituting a th for an s (thun for sun), I would probably shrug my shoulders as this is a very typical mistake for young children. If the child were saying kun for sun, I would be more concerned as that is not usual. In preschoolers, it is important to look at growth over time as well as how a child is doing right now. And...is the child unintelligible...or does the child make sound errors but listeners can still understand him? These are important questions. If your neighbor has concerns there is a birth to three agency in your state which will conduct a speech evaluation at no cost. Contact the local public school and they can refer you to the proper agency for your area. SUBJECT: Re:Developemental Speech Date: 97-09-04 17:05:42 EST From: ShelleyHL P.S. I forgot this in my posting...Unless you are specifically asked for assistance, I would suggest that you not offer it. Even as a professional, I do not comment on the speech habits of friend's or neighbor's children unless specifically I am asked. SUBJECT: Re:Starting services inthe f Date: 97-09-04 19:55:45 EST From: MareCash This is in response to Shellyhl's inquiry about screening. Accordingto our special ed director, it is mandated that we screen all children entering Kindergarten. Does anyone have other info? We schedule 7 days of screenings in our school in the spring ( of course, that means cancelling classes), butnow at the start of the school year ,we have 40 children who did not come in for the screenings, just moved here, etc. I will need to screen them next week. SUBJECT: Re:Starting services inthe f Date: 97-09-04 20:02:00 EST From: MareCash Dona - I like how you think. I work k-5 and have 73 ids to schedule. Although I worked hard with the principal to group kids in classes together, I still have 25 teachers to work with. I started trying to set up some scheduling today. I got a few groups scheduled. Five minutes before I walked out the door, one of the teachers came and said she had made a mistake - they haev computers at that time. Threw everything out. Back to square one. Personally, I don't get how anyone can effectively schedule kids they have never met in order to start on the first day of school. I got 27 new Kindergarten children this year. Today I spent the day in the classrooms, interacting with them to see who they could work with in a group. In adition, in the higher grades. I got 12 new kids. I am always open for suggestions to heasr how others approach this. SUBJECT: CAPPS? Date: 97-09-04 20:50:59 EST From: Mechthildm My seven year old daughter's speech therapist would like to do a Children's Auditory Procesing Performance Scale checklist, which was developed by Smoski. However; we can't find it anywhere. Does anyone know where we can look or who has it? I appreciate all responses. SUBJECT: Re: K screening Date: 97-09-05 15:32:53 EST From: ShelleyHL So far as I know there is no FEDERAL mandate for screening kindergarteners. Perhaps this is a state mandate...or a local one...or perhaps it is school district policy. As I stated earlier, not screening saves me having to see the average kiddos, which quite frankly are most of the kiddos (thankfully). The teachers are wonderful, and not at all shy about passing the names of kids to me to screen on an as needed basis. ShelleyHL SUBJECT: Re: K screening Date: 97-09-05 23:15:19 EST From: HarrietSLP I used to do kindergarten screenings also, but now this is no longer part of my professional responsibilities. The kindergarten teachers are trained to do developmental testing and if they fail the communication screen then they are referred to me. However, I still am in charge of the Hearing Screening Program for the 4 schools I serve. We routinely screen grades K, 2, 4, 8, special ed children, new children, and rechecks. With 4 schools this takes approximatley at least one week of my time at the beginning of the school years. I also serve the most severely communicatively handicapped kids in my school district. Several are utilizing augmentative communication devices. If I used a weighted caseload ( as Tennessee recommends but does NOT mandate, then my caseload is approxmately 90 at this point in time). It usally takes me at least 3 weeks at the beginning of the school year to do screening, testing, meetings, etc. before I can begin therapy. Legally, therapy should start on day 1 of the school year but the reality of the situation makes this impossible. Sure wish a parent would squeal on me and seek compensatory services. This is the only way I think that the school administration will WAKE UP and do what is right for the disabled child and fair for the therapist. I understand that the next time we are monitored that the state monitors will actually visit the classrooms and the special educators out in the individual schools rather than just reviewing records at the Central Office for which they write us up on things like not filling in every space on the page ( We are told not to leave any spaces blank on any forms - put NOT APPLICABLE). Such a crazy world we live in!! I've decided not to join my state speech, language, and hearing association this year because I feel like after 25 years they've accomplished nothing significant for public school speech and language pathologists. Our greatest need is a MANDATED caseload size so that we can serve our children appropriately and fairly. Sorry, I started venting again. I wish you the best of luck this school year. The first six weeks are generally the toughest but things do improve as you get settled into therapy. Take care, Harriet SUBJECT: Re: K screening Date: 97-09-06 09:04:37 EST From: ShelleyHL In our school system (and in many others here in CT) the school nurse is in charge of hearing screenings (as well as vision screenings...the only reason I mention this is that if speech paths do hearing screening than why not have the LD folks do vision screening...how silly!!!). The only time I get involved is when a child fails more than once. Then I do the tymp which our school nurse doesn't do. We also have some kiddos with chronic hearing problems and we share the responsibility for screening them monthly. Again....most of these kiddos are just fine. It takes tremendous amounts of time to do these screenings and in most cases they yield no disability. The nurse takes a couple of weeks to do each grade. In some schools they train volunteer parents to do a pure tone screening. It sure isn't hard to do. And if there is a question, the nurse does a recheck. ShelleyHL SUBJECT: State associations Date: 97-09-06 09:07:16 EST From: ShelleyHL Harriet, I agree with you. I have not joined my state association since moving to this state. The bulk of therapists are in the schools and yet their annual conference address issues for the geriatric population and eating disorders. They have not done anything I can see for the school therapist. Of course...I could say the same about ASHA, of which I am a member. Too bad. SUBJECT: Re:hearing/vision screenings Date: 97-09-06 09:27:42 EST From: Toezap We started vision/hearing screening all kids in every elememtary school every year several years ago. We just finished one of my schools this week, and successfully got everyone screened in half of one day, including scoliosis screening for the 5th and 6th graders. Before we started this I never would have thought it could be done, but now it goes smoothly, This is a district-wide program, and each elem. school has a day scheduled. The school nurses go to each screening (if the school is large enough), and they use students from the high school health occupations classes to help as well as PTA parent volunteers. I have used parent voluteers in the past, and some years am able to get students from the local univerisity speech and hearing program to come and help with hearing screenings. We gather all the SLPs audiometers/vision charts and they are circulated from screening to screening. Failures on vision are rescreened by the nurses that day and letters sent home...hearing are redone that day on Kindergarteners (who may not have understood) and 2 weeks later on everyone else. The PE teacher gets parents who are nurses and her assistant and they do scoliosis simultaneously. I am "in charge" and initially it was a scary experience but we've learned alot each year and now I think it's an asset. The results are recorded in the cum. folders of each student, and now when anyone comes up before building-based committee for referral for special ed, or three year eligibility is done I don't have to try and squeeze in those hearing/vision screenings that always needed to be done "right now". We also can follow those kids that fail more efficiently to try and get them whatever services they need. It has turned out to be a timesaver rather than another drain on my time, SUBJECT: autism and facilitated comm.. Date: 97-09-06 11:19:45 EST From: JKaplan29 Hello, I was just catching up on the board and saw that no one answered your question on autism and fc. I teach multiple disabilities. I have facilitated with someone for over 3 years. I think she facilitates with over 10 people. She will never be an independent typist due to other disabilities that are inaddition to autism. Some of the students in her fc support group are now independent typists! Some are trying. There is a high school out here that trains peer tutors to be facilitatiors. It is wonderful program! If you would like anymore information, please let me know. I don't know where you live. There will be an FC conference in Orange County, Ca in October and later one in Syracuse, NY. Let me know if you need more info! : ) Janette SUBJECT: Re:State associations Date: 97-09-06 15:36:45 EST From: HarrietSLP Shelley, Just wanted to post and say that the TN association has offered many workshops in conjunction with the State Board of Education which provide continuing education opportunites for public school speech and language pathologists in our state. These are free and have covered such topics as autism, traumatic brain injury, central auditory processing disorders, etc. They periodically do surveys and the #1 concern of public school SLP's over the years continues to be large caseloads. The state association has been unsuccessful in their state lobbying efforts to get a state MANDATED caseload size since I graduated from UT in 1977. I continue to belong to ASHA primarily because I feel professionally obligated to keep my CCC-SLP. However, I also feel that ASHA has failed in its efforts to improve the working conditions of their largest constituency - being the public school SLP. ~Harriet SUBJECT: Re:Starting services inthe f Date: 97-09-06 16:13:39 EST From: TLVAIL In our schools, all the kindergarten teachers are screened by the teachers- anyone with a problem or concern is referred to the SLP. All "specials" are arranged by the principal before school starts and a schedule is given to us on the first day of school. This year, at my request, she grouped my kids into classes for me. I scheduled all of the classes (I do inclusion) on the first day of school. I then reviewed files and made sure all my paperwork was in order, made an annual review list ( ours go for one calendar year- not all at the same time) and ran off things I needed to start therapy. In 2 days, I was ready to start therapy. I don't understand the need for mass SI screenings- hearing, yes, and our school nurses do that. I sit on the assistance team and if a child is having classroom difficulty which may be related to communication, I screen them then. What is the purpose of mass screening? SUBJECT: Re:Starting services inthe f Date: 97-09-06 20:23:46 EST From: HarrietSLP < What is the purpose of mass screening?> Well....it is routinely utilized to identify those children with suspected speech and language problems and/or developmental delays. In Tennessee all children prior to first grade must have the following developmental areas screened: visual perception; auditory perception, gross motor; fine motor; social development;and speech/ language. Vision and hearing screening is done 4 times - preferably grades K, 2, 4, and 8. I used to work in a school system where teacher assistants were trained to do the vision and hearing screening. However, in my present system the SLP's are required to do the hearing screening and the vision specialist does vision screening. Our school system contracts with a private audiologist to do further testing on those who fail the hearing screening. I don't mind doing the screening other than the fact that it takes away from therapy time. ~Harriet SUBJECT: Re:Starting services inthe f Date: 97-09-07 10:54:56 EST From: ShelleyHL I agree...what is the purpose of mass screening? I guess if it is a state mandate than you have no choice. I, too, sit on the child study team when needed. I screen the kiddos who are having difficulty...not the ones who are not. It sure streamlined my operation to do so. SUBJECT: Re:Starting services inthe f Date: 97-09-07 17:01:09 EST From: TLVAIL From the way I understand it, our jobs as SLP's in the schools is to provide services to children who have communication problems that are having a negative impact on educational performance. If the child is having difficulty in school, he/she will be referred to the assistance team for help. If they are not having trouble in school, even if they have a communication problem, they should not be served by the school SLP. So...if you screen all children, do you only test those who fail and *also* are having academic difficulty? Mass SI screenings make no sense to me and seem to be an awful waste of time. Can you find out where this requirement came from and try to have it changed? Also- are any of you billing medicaid for services provided by bachelor's level SLP's in the schools? We always heard that the SLP's had to be licensed in order to bill but have recently heard of schools billing for both bachelors and masters level services. I live in NC. SUBJECT: jr high tx ideas Date: 97-09-07 18:29:03 EST From: Toezap I have recently acquired a group of jr high students who are very low functioning and need improvement in social language skills. Although they are grouped together all day long they verbally interact primarily only with their teachers when required to do so. If anyone has any good and simple ideas of age appropriate activities that I can do I'd love to hear them. All but one are nonreaders, yet I do want activities to facilitate communication that are appropriate to the jr. high setting.Thanks! SUBJECT: Re:Starting services inthe f Date: 97-09-07 20:02:07 EST From: MareCash I live in New York , and wehn I started this job, the SLP who taught me the paperwork ropes told me these K screenings were part of my duties. I will be sure to question if they are truly mandated at our next meeting. As for TVAIL's question about medicaid billing.... All or our licensed SLP's are billing. Those that are unlicensed are being supervised by one of our licensed SLP's who is being paid a stipend to do so. She is signing off on all of the billing by the unlicensed people. When the district told us they would be requiring medicaid billing, we really had about a year's worth of discussion about all of the issues that go along with it. In the end we didn't have much say in anything. For all of the additional paperwork, and the use of our licenses ( which is really what they are doing) we got no extra prep time, no computers to use for report writing, etc. SUBJECT: Re:jr high tx ideas Date: 97-09-08 18:38:58 EST From: Galiemla I have an Intermediate Life Skills classroom that I run a 'social' group in. It's called "Coffee Talk". Each week the teacher and I decided upon a topic and develop two discussion questions. Sometimes we tap into the the regular ed kids for their suggestions. Sometimes we are even lucky enough to have special guests attend, like the superintendent, principal or board members. The discussion questions are sent home so that the family is involved by introducing the topic to the students. During "Coffee Talk", we practice taking turns, asking and answering questions and learn more about each other. After our discussion, these social skills are taken a step further. We then have a snack during which more discussion is encouraged. We have used this with both verbal and nonverbal students. We really have a great time. I hope this suggestion helps. SUBJECT: Need info Date: 97-09-09 01:26:03 EST From: CHSMom I hope someone can answer a question, or point me in the right direction. My 10 year old son is ADHD and dyslexic. When talking, especially when he is trying to tell about something that happened, he often has a very difficult time retrieving the word he wants to use. Is this indicative of a language problem, or is it "typical" of ADHD kids, because they go so fast? Thanks. SUBJECT: Re:Need info Date: 97-09-09 09:30:28 EST From: Mars000210 Hello CHS, could he have dysnomia. My children and I have this. It is a retrieval problem with pulling the right word out when you want it.It very much feels like someone who walks in a room and forgets what they are there for, but later the information comes back. We have found that the larger our vocabulary has become the less of a problem this presents as we have grown older. What this means when doing written work is that you are constantly substuting other words for the word you would rather use, because you can't pull the word you want out at that moment. It adds a 5% difficulty to a child who is dysgraphic.(stats according to SusanS29) :) I have this too. Take Care Barb SUBJECT: Mandated K Screening In NY Date: 97-09-09 14:52:09 EST From: MareCash I checked with our department head today. She informed me that screening Kindergarten students for Speech and Langauge skills is mandated by the state of New York. I will get a copy of the mandate to post this week. SUBJECT: Re:Mandated K Screening In NY Date: 97-09-09 17:15:32 EST From: ShelleyHL I'd love to see the mandate...and the rationale for this. ShelleyHL SUBJECT: Re:Mandated K Screening Date: 97-09-09 19:10:37 EST From: AndersonTG In our district we screen all kindergarten children. It was our understanding that it was mandated that all children in Illinois would have a speech screen upon initial entrance in school. Hence, kindergarten screening. We screen new students at other grade levels. We were told by the state that we could not do "screenings" as requested by teachers at other grade levels because a screening indicated that it was something that was done to all of the children. If you do only one or two in each class we were required to get parental permission signed to do a speech/language evaluation. Also, in response to a previous posting about a severity guideline for speech path's in Illinois. The person to contact would be Jodi Fleck with the Illinois State Board of Education. The guidelines have not been revised or approved. In Illinois, they have done away with the office of special education and things are moving very slowly. ISHLA has not made much of a dent in Illinois on lowering case load numbers although, I know there is a group working on it. Cheryl SUBJECT: Re:Need info Date: 97-09-09 23:57:13 EST From: CHSMom Thanks Barb - I'll check into dysnomia further. Altho he is not diagnosed as dysgraphic, I suspect he is, has many OT issues. Debbie SUBJECT: Re:Mandated K Screening Date: 97-09-10 15:57:39 EST From: ShelleyHL Speech screenings done by teacher referral are the basis for any prereferral information to be conveyed to either the planning and placement team or our child study team (which handles prereferrals). In our state we have to document what we have done outside of special education, prior to a formal referral. A teacher's referral to me gives me the chance to listen informally to a child and provide inclass strategies that might correct a potential problem. This is a state mandate and must be documented in writing prior to any formal referral.I do not use a formal screening device, just informal measures, self developed. It opens a great dialogue with the teachers and parents. SUBJECT: Re: Kindergarten delema Date: 97-09-10 16:04:17 EST From: WYOBSKT Hello. I have a 6 year old with severe speech delay, congnitive level is "average". This year we have him in K for half day then goes to the 1st grade ISEC class in the afternoon. My problem is that there are aprox. 4 children in the afternoon isec with severe behavior problems. From what I'm told they are very difficult to control. My son, who is very mild mannered and on the norm, very well behaved. Lately though he comes home, very tired and very vicious. Throwing things and crying uncontrollably. I'm certain he's picking it up from class. Should I just keep reinforcing the "good " behavior or should I look into having him taken out of the class. He's basically in the ISEC so they don't have to pull him out of regular ed to give him the services. (Speech, ot and pt.) I'm a bit concerned that this bad behavior will stick with him. Any advice will be helpful. Thank you! WYOBSKT SUBJECT: Other Mandates Date: 97-09-10 16:32:17 EST From: MareCash In NY we are also mandated to screen any third grader who does not pass the third grade reading PEPS. We are also mandated to screen any children grades 1-5 who come to us from another state, or from a parochial school. I agree that mass K screenings can be time consuming, and the majority of the children would be eventually referrred by the teachers anyways. However, in our spring screening, I identified 12 children who needed full speech language. This was able to be done over the summer, so these children do not have to wait as long to start services. SUBJECT: Re:Mandated K Screening Date: 97-09-10 17:01:15 EST From: Toezap Shelley, we now have approximately the same system here...we have what is called a building-based support team that all special ed referrals, including speech now go thru. We can recommend some interventions in the classroom, and if we do then we have to specify in writing what they are to be and then the team reviews results as reported by the teacher six weeks later. Interventions do not have to take place for speech however, if I choose to recommend to accept the referral and go ahead and test. This is how we differ from other special ed services. Laurie SUBJECT: Re:State associations Date: 97-09-10 18:00:12 EST From: MRogers140 Harriet, I have just moved to TN. Can you give me an address for joining the state association. Thank you! MRogers140@aol.com SUBJECT: Re:Mandated K Screening In NY Date: 97-09-10 18:32:19 EST From: TLVAIL Marecash- I wonder if it's mandated that the SLP's be the ones who screen. In our district all Kindergarten students are screened with the DIAL- Speech/language is a section of most overall screens. SLP's aren't involved except with those who fail. SUBJECT: Re:Mandated K Screening Date: 97-09-10 18:36:28 EST From: TLVAIL RE: screenings- I have the teachers put the names of children they are concerned about in my box then go to the classroom and talk to the teacher about the types of concerns. Occassionally I will sit at a table and talk to a group of students to do an informal screen- If I feel I need more I send a notification of screening- not permission to test unless I know the kiddo will qualify (or at least pretty sure). It is my understanding that once you get the permission to test signed, you have to do all the paperwork. Yuck!! Does your assistance team send a notification of screening to parents before doing academic screens for kids referred to them? If so, could you use the same form? SUBJECT: Re: Kindergarten delema Date: 97-09-10 18:38:51 EST From: TLVAIL I don't understand the rationale re: being pulled out of a regular or special ed. class. His placement should depend soley on his goals and where they can best be met. I would ask for a meeting to discuss the issue and come up with some resolutions. SUBJECT: Re:Need info Date: 97-09-11 00:28:10 EST From: PPear31329 My son is 12 years old and has A.D.H.D. and dyslexia. He does not have problems retrieving the right words when telling stories, but he mispronounces alot of his words ( narble for marble) ext.. We just found out he has a severe auditory defficate. So he not only has trouble staying focused, but he doesn't hear exactly what the teachers say, we're not even sure if he doesn't miss some of the things that are said. It has been a really hard road for everyone but expecially for him. I keep praying that this year will be better than last... Good Luck.. SUBJECT: Re:Need info Date: 97-09-11 00:36:49 EST From: CHSMom by auditory deficit do you mean hearing loss? That is tough. Good luck to you SUBJECT: speech delay Date: 97-09-11 21:32:46 EST From: KRSNMIK Hi - I'm hoping to find some creative answers here ! I have a 3 yrd old who is spech delayed - both expressive (18-26 mos) and receptive (22-29 mos). She is going to individual speech therapy 2x a week for a total of 1.5 hrs. I'm wondering if there is anything else I can do? I was considering having an eval done for the early intervention program for preschool....but I'm not sure. She has mastered all other milestones in gross & fine motor skills (except potty training !).....I'm trying to make sure she has every opportunity available to progress and be the best she can. She's had all the medical tests done (eeg, mri etc), & everything is normal - she's just delayed. She has been in speech for about 8 mos now & really has made tons of progress....Any thoughts on other things we can do to help ? Thanks ! SUBJECT: Mandated Screenings Date: 97-09-11 22:12:52 EST From: MareCash Our special ed director is sending me a copy of the NY mandate. I will post it when I get it. We do not need parental permission to screen - since it is a state mandate. If during a screening I find delays, I send home my own SL testing permission form. If the student qualifies for services, I refer to the psychologist who starts the CSE referral. We are not supposed to do Speech improvement in our district, unless we have the time (yeah right!) , but I always have a few on my caseload. So, most of the kids get refered to CSE. I start most of them before CSE (must send home a permission to start speech form). I'd like to also hear what other distict's are doing about caseload size - I know ASHA has recommendations, but school districts do not follow them - at least ours doesn't. We are supposed to have a top number of 65 CSE kids. This is still too many - so many of my kiddos are 4 times a week this year. What are you all doing about speech improvement? Do you still do it/ If not, how did your district let parents know? SUBJECT: Re:3 year old's speech delay Date: 97-09-11 22:44:01 EST From: WVV Hiker Greetings, As a parent, I would do some of the following activities: -I would read to hear during the day, look at picture books and talk about the pictures -talk to her while I am working around the house...."now let's go do the wash.....open the lid....the washer is empty....put this shirt in it....now the soap..." and other household tasks when you can do the chore and talk easily to her at the same time... -riding in the car, talk about the places you are passing, where you are going, what you need to do....as if you had another adult along with you, but in simple sentences.....and you may not get an answer back, but it is important to keep talking.... -go to children's museums, fun places for kids, a pet store..... grocery store...every place is a new awakening world to your child....talk about what you see, and what you are doing....be sure to use not just the names of objects, but also action words, which can later be combined to make "phrases and sentences" -play with your child at home....dress up dolls, finger paints, paper and markers, the computer....especially whatever she likes to do, go for a walk, etc. and can enjoy talking with her while playing and having a pleasant experience too. -go to the library , perhaps they have a children's theatre or some other enrichment type activity....check out a book, read another while still in the library.... -during your child's day, take photos of her in action....then later can talk about them, put them in sequence, and have fun looking at them. Did that for my child when he was about your daughter's age. He is now 16, and it's amusing to see all the cute photos of him in action doing different activities around the house and at the park.... -check out the YMCA/YWCA for mother/child activities. Hope these might be some helpful suggestions that you might do to help stimulate your child's listening and speaking skills. You might be doing some already, and that's great!! Oh, one more thing - give her plenty of hugs and kisses, snuggle time :) Anne SUBJECT: elective mute Date: 97-09-11 22:44:30 EST From: Aikijlw I have a second grader in my class who has not spoken at school - apparently ever. The problem has been noted since she entered kinder. Mom says she speaks at home. She doesn't speak in the classroom, playground - anywhere. Her skills in all areas are very low. Any suggestions for helping her in the classroom? Not necessarily to speak - but to work with her academics more effectively. SUBJECT: Re:elective mute Date: 97-09-11 22:50:31 EST From: WVV Hiker Ah, sounds familiar... I have a boy in first grade who had not spoken last year during Kindergarten. I think he might whisper to kids this year, but that is not the definite case. Found info on the computer about it, and there is also a foundation regarding these cases, that can send you info.....if I remember when I get to work, will bring some addresses home with me. They had helpful info. Main person working with the child and the family should be the school psychologist. The Speech person is involved if when the child does speak, he would have articulation or sentence errors..... I find it amazing that other children don't inspire the silent one to speak.....interesting children. Anne SUBJECT: Re: Nevada Date: 97-09-12 13:30:13 EST From: OromotorSP This might be an unusual message but, here goes. I am trying to locate anyone from the state of Nevada who is interested in oral-motor therapy. Please e-mail me: oromotorsp. Thanks, Sara Rosenfeld-Johnson SUBJECT: Testing Date: 97-09-12 13:49:52 EST From: Diana0309 Hi, I am a mother in NC with a 9yo who demonstrates reading difficulty ie. transposes letters rain--->rian sometimes he *sees* it other times not, no decoding skill (word id) just says what he thinks it is...or reads it with letters dropped off. ie Bill[y] This effects his reading,writing and spelling skills. I am having to build a strong case to get school assist, because No 15pt discrepancy from IQ to WJ-R. He did demonstrate on WISC and Bender Gestalt Visual Motor test of having a significant weakness with visual perceptual processing. It is really beginning to interfere with academics more so than previous years. It *looks* like dyslexia with dysgraphia with some ADHD added (currently being evaluated) He was retained in 1st due to reading difficulties and immaturity. Are there better tests to evaluate these weaknesses? I have a folder full of examples to show how this effects his academics...And with great assertiveness convinced school to at least evaluate for 504!! Any suggestions greatfully accepted!! I need to convince school he needs help NOW before he fails again. Thank you Diana SUBJECT: Voice light Date: 97-09-12 17:51:18 EST From: Toezap Anyone remember the old "voice light" that can be used for volume control practice? Do you know if these are still made and if so where can they be obtained, (or something similar) Thanks SUBJECT: child w/dysxlexic & dysgraph Date: 97-09-13 16:44:06 EST From: Toni W1106 Diana, Don't give up. Request that a 504 be done. In our district they can't deny a 504. I have a very similar child. She struggles in school. We requested a special ed referral because she did not quality for reading recovery (Too Low?) I panicked and got a referral. She did not qualify. She went 1/2 the year w/o special services. They put her in a literacy group to I think satisfy me. We request another psych and this time she qualified but in math and not reading. It is very frustrating. We had her tested privately and was found to be ADD (Passive type) . She definitly has dyslexic tendencies which was confirmed by the private psych. Do not give up. The school.must do something. It is your right to a 504. Do not give up. If need be go privately for a psych exam for more infor. Good luck. Toni SUBJECT: Re:speech delay Date: 97-09-13 16:46:39 EST From: Toni W1106 By all means get your child into a good preschool. Social language is very important in the language development of a child. If it is a PPI program there normally is a SLP that would see your child at the school several times a week. good luck toni SUBJECT: Fast Forward ?? Date: 97-09-15 14:17:05 EST From: Jtkita Hi - I am an SLP in need of info re: Fast Forward. Where can I access info re: ordering/cost and perhaps an outline of this program?? Please e-mail me , THANKS jtkita@aol.com SUBJECT: Re: Screenings Date: 97-09-16 08:15:41 EST From: Roskzalex Our district used to do Spring Kdg. Roundup and put all the kids through a DIAL-R screening. Several years ago, they switched to having a staggered start- each Kdg. class is divided up into three sections and each small group gets one day to get to know the teacher (and vice versa) for the first 3 days of school. Then the class comes as a whole. This gives the teacher a chance to really spot those needs and make appropriate referrals for screenings. It is also easy to screen those children who may require speech screenings. The kindergarten teachers, the parents and all involved are very pleased with this system. I have worked in this district for several years and know my teachers. I do not do a mass screening anymore. They are competent! They know when a child's speech is not up to par and make good referrals from there. For years I did mass screenings and what I learned, by cross referencing names from year to year (e.g. in Kdg., Johnny didn't say his s,r,th. In first grade, he has learned his s, in second grade he had learned his 'r' , In third grade he had learned his 'th') is that most kids grow out of their speech problems, and that it is fairly easy to tell when they aren't going to by the quality of their misarticulations. I guess it is just out of practice..... Robyn SUBJECT: Re:elective mute Date: 97-09-16 14:43:24 EST From: K for 5 The November issue of the professional publication, Language, Speech and Hearing Services in Schools has a report entitled, "Selective Mutism in Elementary School: Multidisciplinary Interventions. It basically discusses a treatment approach via a case study which centered on the team work between teacher, speech path and psychologist. I'm sure the speech pathologist at your child's school would have access to this publication if you were interested in reviewing it. Kerry SUBJECT: Re:elective mute Date: 97-09-16 14:46:08 EST From: K for 5 Ooops - forgot you're not the mom - but as a teacher you may want to pass this article on to the parent or I'm sure you may find it helpful for yourself, etc. . . . . kerry SUBJECT: Re: Screenings Date: 97-09-16 16:21:37 EST From: ShelleyHL Robyn, I share your sentiments. I guess what I'm seeing here is that some states mandate these screenings. I am unclear as to the rationale for this as well as whether these screenings are mandated to be done by a SLP...or could the kindergarten teacher do them? Also, I wonder how many situations are ones of past practice and not present usefulness. SUBJECT: Re: Screenings Date: 97-09-16 17:02:05 EST From: Boulevard We screen using a form we developed that corresponds to our state guidelines. (No hassle with copyright laws because we "own " it. We can make multiple copies without buying this form, and it reflects what our state guidelines are. ) Our "Count Your Kid In" (preschool) screenings are available in all school parent newsletters and are advertised throughout the community. If the parent or teacher does not indicate a concern, the child's articulation/phonology development is screened in the Spring of their kindergarten year(and if nobody thinks it's a problem prior to that, why would we screen? Preassessment information must document that an impairment is affecting classroom performance). We publish notices in the monthly newsletter that screening is available upon parent request or teacher concern prior to that. As far as language concerns, we look at how the child is operating in the classroom (teacher checklist, slp observation) and then refer to the building team. Doing a language eval. in the past without benefit of the team looking at the child often resulted in a language program developed without the necessary academic modifications implemented. So, we had a "speech/language IEP" and then 6 mos later found that the child qualified for academic support through the "learning disabilities" label. We need to look at how the communication deficit/disorder impacts the child's functioning within the school setting. Teacher inservice and parent information often remediate any questions related to this issue. Nancy, SLP (boulevard@aol.com) SUBJECT: Re:Need info Date: 97-09-17 00:19:34 EST From: PPear31329 No he does not have hearing loss, but he misses soft sounds, and his auditory processing doesn't send the same message to his brain, that the teachers intended. He hearing is within the normal range. I know its hard to understand, try explaining it to him.....and the teachers.... They look at me like I have two heads.... SUBJECT: Auditory Deficit/Aud. proc? Date: 97-09-17 06:46:00 EST From: SPCHRGM Are you referring to auditory processing disorder? If so, not only it it possible that he has normal hearing, but it may even be "too good". With an auditory processing disorder, you don't have to have peripheral loss. Tell the teachers that its not his ability to hear that is affected, its' the ability to make sense of what is comming in(for various reasons). At any rate, who dx. the disorder? If the person works for the schools, they should be willing to talk to your sons' teachers about this and how to help him. If not, have him/her write something up explaining the results of the testing and suggested CLASSROOM accomadations. You may need to have accomodations added to his exsisting IEP, which may require a seperate meeting. Please, if you don't understand what the diagnosis means, you need to sit down with this person who dx your son and talk about it and the implications of it. I am sorry for you that he is 12 years old before this was discovered, but the important part, is where to go from here and does he need an accomodations plan(504)...Good luck.... Regina SUBJECT: Re:Need info Date: 97-09-17 15:54:25 EST From: Lynnebl This happens to me all the time. I haven't figured out if it is a tactic to prevent the child from getting services by refusing to validate that there is a problem or if the school staff is uneducated. My youngest child has an auditory processing problem which is being addressed through therapy from the speech pathologist. It took me years to get the proper testing and diagnosis. Now my question is....is the treatment correct? Has anyone heard of *Auditory Trainers*? Is there any other treatment for auditory processing deficit besides therapy with the speech pathologist? Thanks Lynne SUBJECT: CELF-3 Date: 97-09-17 16:18:46 EST From: MirlaG A few years ago I purchased the CELF and found the norms for the test to be inaccurate. It has been revised a couple of times since and am wondering if the normative data is more accurate now. Also, would you recommend the CELF-3 over the TOLD (P:3)? Your comments will be much appreciated. Mirla SUBJECT: Re:Fast Forward ?? Date: 97-09-17 16:21:37 EST From: MirlaG Fast Forward address: 417 Montgomery St., Suite 500, San Francisco, CA 94104; phone 415-296-1470; fax 415-296-1481; website: www.scilearn.com. Mirla SUBJECT: Re:Need info Date: 97-09-17 18:48:37 EST From: SPCHRGM Ideally, therapy should involve the audiologist, speech pathologist and classroom teacher working together as a team. The speech therapist is usually the one who implements it in the school setting partially because of a lack of educational audiologists. The other problem tends to be one of three different persons' perspective on the problem and having ideas implemented in more than one setting. For example, say a child is dx. with an Central Audirory Processing disorder by an audiologist. The recommndation may be for sound field amplification in the classroom setting. The next decision should be for a personal FM unit, or a classroom unit? The speech therapist acts as a bridge between the educational audilogist and the teacher and, if you will, coordinator to monitor the accomodation once it is prescribed. She also provides the one on one training and should also monitor progress in the classroom setting as well as making sure that the child's unit is set to the appropriate level. Training should also extend to the classroom teacher and other professionals working with the child. The biggest gaps I have found are between1. The level of expertise of the therapist and or teacher,2. The willingness of the audiologist to act as a team memeber, and 3. information passed to the parents in a way that makes it possible for them to understand their child's problem and also act as advocate for their child. Now, what is an auditory trainer? It is a small black box attatched to the child's clothing(or belt), with earphones(they come in different types), that allow the child to hear the teachers' voice above the classroom level noises thus aiding attention and allowing better participation in classroom activities for a child who either cannot hear the sound above noise or is having problems discriminating the teachers' voice (reduced clarity). Of late. the units can also be purchased and installed in the ceiling so that all children benefit from a better signal to noise ratio(clarity of speech above extraneous noise). Many children who do not wish to be "singled out" do better in classrooms with these units. Most of my kids don't mind the headsets, they just joke that they gets to wear their"walkmans" all day!! Hope that helped you. Please e-mail or post here if you have more?...Regina, an SLP with an overly acute interest in the subject due to having a CAPD child.... SUBJECT: Re: Selective Mutism Date: 97-09-17 21:42:12 EST From: WVV Hiker Greetings, Here are the addresses for the "Selective Mutism Foundation, Inc." and they provide excellent info. They request that when writing to them for info, please send a business sized self addressed envelope with 2 stamps ($.64) All correspondence should include a note indicating whether the writer is a parent, a professional, etc. That way they can mail the appropriate information. There are 2 addresses: Sue Newman, Co-Director Carolyn Miller, Co-Director Box 450632 Box 13133 Sunrise, FL 33345 Sissonville, WV 25360 I think you will find it very beneficial to write to them regarding your student who does not speak. My student will speak at home; but not at school, not even to other students in the first grade...... and their brochures help us to understand. Anne SUBJECT: Re:Auditory Deficit/Aud. pro Date: 97-09-17 22:04:51 EST From: PPear31329 You hit the nail right on the head. But when tested (privatly), they did not suggest any equipment that would help my son, nor did they feel he needed speech therapy or any specific help with his problems. Other than very specific modifications. The speach therapist at school is the one who sugested he go for the testing, And after the testing was done, she called a team meeting to explain what he specifically was needed in the classroom. The teachers also looked at her like she had two heads. And none of the modification were carried out. This year however, I have noticed a much different attitude, with the handling of my son. The science teacher sat him in the front of the room right near her, and explained to him that she could see he wasn't able to hear what she was saying, because of the conversation his friends were having. the resourse teacher only has 4 children in the room, so this works out wonderful. He told my mother last night he loves to do homework???? I can't believe what I heard. And he really seems to be putting alot into it. And he's telling me he wants to do it on his own..... Things are definetly looking up........... SUBJECT: websites and newsgroups Date: 97-09-18 00:39:25 EST From: Hjtd As the editor of a speech and language pre-k parents' assocation newsletter, I have received a request to publish a list of websites and newsgroups that might be pertinent to the children/parents enrolled in the school. There are also some children with ADD, ADHD and other problems. Please e-mail any info and thanks in advance. SUBJECT: Re:Auditory Deficit/Aud. pro Date: 97-09-18 06:48:39 EST From: SPCHRGM Were the modifications in writing? Were they recorded at the meeting? It seems that you may need a 504 plan in place to get classroom accomidations. Unfortunately, many times committees take a do-nothing stance, but it is benign neglect at best and illegal at worst. If you are still having problems, contact your counties' parent advocate or go for a free initial consult with a lawyer who is knowledgeable in school law. I applaud your SLP for at least trying, but in the schools SLP's are often low man on the totem pole and they tend to be ignored, especially if what they are suggesting costs money...at any rate, start with your director of Special Education and go from there...take a copy of your sons evaluation to the meeting with her/him and tell her what problems you are having...if you continue to get blank looks, get your parent advocate and see where to go from there. If your child already has an IEP you may need to call a meeting and have the modifications added to it for then it becomes a legal document. Do what is best for you and your child and don't give up....Regina SUBJECT: Selective mutism - thanks! Date: 97-09-18 22:33:01 EST From: Aikijlw Thanks for the addresses and such for the Selective Mutism Foundation. I will definitely write to them, and will pass on the info to our school psychologist. She is beginning to respond more to me in class, and actually brought her fifth grade brother by after school to see some of her work that I had put up. SUBJECT: at a loss... Date: 97-09-19 19:49:40 EST From: Mechthildm My seven years old, second grade, daughter, has been identified as speech impaired at the end of last school year. However; I also suspect auditory processing problems. My daughter underwent the CELF and the SCAN, neither of them showed any problems. When my daughter gets detailed instructions, she is not abel to follow them. Sometimes when we talk to her she just looks at us with a blank exprtession on her face. During the CELF, even though the results were within norm, several times I saw a clear delay in her answers. Most of her modifications are geared toward auditory processing problems, for example repeating instructions back to the teachers, chunking of work to be done. Does anyone have suggestions on where I should go from here? I am not ready to give up, just don't know what to do next. Please e-mail to mechthildm@aol, or post here. I appreciate all the help you can give! Thanks, Mechthild SUBJECT: Re:at a loss...about 7 year Date: 97-09-19 20:29:44 EST From: WVV Hiker Has a hearing test been done? So that you know she has hearing within the normal limits....... To the earlier message, congratulations on your student becoming more expressive!!! Awesome :D SUBJECT: articulation disorder Date: 97-09-20 08:39:06 EST From: Ljhays My son is 4and has mod/severe articulation disorder. He has a history of ear infections(tubes @ 18 MO.)and tongue tie (clipped at 2.5yrs). He has been recieving sp therapy for 1 1/2 years. His oral motor skills with tongue have improved, however he still backs alot of his sounds. He can do initial p,b,m but backs the t's and d's. This is were he is working now. Also, he omitts all consonants at word endings. He can do cvc with models in therapy with cues but still does not carry over to conversation. He is recieving 3 x 30 individually this year. He made very little progress in the last year. Seems like we are really stuck.Does anyone have any suggestions? Also, we are going to have to decide if we should send him to kindergarten next year or hold him back.(He does have a late birthday). His only deficits are expressive speech.Any input would be greatly appreciated. Any books that I can read to help me? Thanks Linda SUBJECT: Re:articulation disorder Date: 97-09-20 14:59:12 EST From: MirlaG Your child should have made more progress by now based on the number of times per week he is seen for therapy and the length of time he has been receiving therapy. It may be time to switch speech pathologists. Ask some other parents, your child's doctor, or if he's in preschool, his teacher if they could recommend someone. SUBJECT: Re:Auditory Deficit/Aud. pro Date: 97-09-20 18:19:51 EST From: PPear31329 To Regina: Yes he has a 504 plan, and all the modifications were clearly written in his I.E.P. and again on an attached sheet with clearly written modifications. The problem was he was caught between a disagreement with this particular group of teachers, and administration. And they were determined to prove that inclusion doesn't work... Sad isn't it to flush a kids education down the tubes to prove a point.....Thank God this year is much better and his modifications are being followed. Thanks. SUBJECT: caseload Date: 97-09-20 22:31:10 EST From: DorrianCA A special ed administrator told us last week that school districts should average 1 speech pathologist per 1000 students - in California. Anyone heard this, or know where I can get it in writing. Also, our school district's budget allows only $400.00 per year for speech therapists and $500.00 per year for every other credentialed postion. Does this sound like discrimination or ??? SUBJECT: revamping screening Date: 97-09-21 08:24:12 EST From: StJeFrey I am revamping our kindergarten/new student screening method. Currently we use the GFTA which seems outdated and gives limited information. What do you use in your district? I would appreciate any suggestions and/or examples of what you use. Thanks!! SUBJECT: stuttering Date: 97-09-21 09:41:56 EST From: CBiller2 I am writing a paper on stuttering for a special learning disabilities class. Are there any teacher's who can share their methods used to help educate these students? What other problems are associated with stuttering? SUBJECT: Re:revamping screening Date: 97-09-21 10:59:54 EST From: MareCash I have used the Fluharty, which I don't really like. There is also one called the Joliet 3 minute screen. I don't really likethat one either. This year I ordered the - oh gosh, now I'm not sure of the exact name - I'd have to look at school - I think it is the Speech-Ease K-1 screening. It's OK. Most years I have gone back to a screening that was developed at my undergrad college - SUNY Cortland. It has an artic section, vocabulary, wh-Q probe, Carrow Screening, and Menyuk repetition. It is pretty thourough. SUBJECT: stuttering Date: 97-09-21 11:14:27 EST From: MareCash I am writing again with a question about a fourth grade stutterer on my caseload. I worked with him last year and made very little progress. He apparently "began" stuttering in the first grade and was seen by the previous SLP for two years. A little history - his father also stutters (dad is in jail), his uncle stutters and his sister who is in second grade stutters. She is not as severe. Strong familial history here. This boy is very bright, but also is becoming more and more of a behavior problem in school. Often laughc when others make mistakes, has started to become agressive. His sister is also agressive. Mom has been hot-lined several times for suspected abuse. Mom has also been arrested for welfare fraud. This child has no motivation at all to use the methods I have taught him to help himself. His sister does pretty well, usually is only disfluent when she is upset, or being reprimanded. Because the behaviors are worse this year, everyone is looking to me- assuming that his behaviors are due to his frustration with his speech. I have answered that I really can't answer that, but to say that many other children who do not stutter have behavior problems. We haev tried counseling with these children. When the school social worker tried he wouldn't talk about anything. So we got a male intern - he wouldn't open up to him either. I believe this child is dealing with some major problems on the home front. I have suggested to mom that she get some outside coulseling. I really believe that she has told them never to tell whatever secrets they are keeping. She calls, sounding concerned, but then never carries through with suggestions. She talks a mile a minute herself. I have also suggested that speech therapy outside if the school setting may be helpful. She did actually make an appointment to have him evaluated, so at least that is a step in the right direction. My question is - when do I say enough is enough with this child? Do we stop trying at some point. I could be waiting years fo rthis child to become motivated. Meanwhile, I have othe rstudents to service. Has anyone ever had to just give the child time off from therapy? How about opinions on doing dual therapy - both at home and at a clinic? Do you think it is too much pressure- or advantageous? I would appreciate any insights. SUBJECT: mouth breather, artic. Date: 97-09-21 11:19:56 EST From: MareCash I have a 3rd grade girl on my caseload who is a mouth breather, sucks her tongue, and has a lisp that is kindof a combined frontal and lateral to one side. She had therpay in 1st grade with another SLP. Last year I started with her and tried the Straight Speech program. A littlel progress was made in tongue retraction, but she still moves it to the side, sucks her tongue, and is a mouth breather. I realize that some oral motor thearpy is necessary. I don't have a very good oral motor background. Luckily I am going to Sara Rosenfield-Johnson's conference in Alabany next month. I am looking for suggestions until then. Her mom also had a lisp when she was young - and her sister who is in K is also displaying one! SUBJECT: Re:stuttering Date: 97-09-21 17:27:07 EST From: StJeFrey Good luck! I haven't given breaks in service but I know someone who has and she seems to think that it helps. I have worked with children who get service in school and outside of school. That is very difficult to coordinate and doesn't seem to make progress go any faster. I would suggest you look into long term counseling through the CSE and perhaps an outside neuropsych eval to see if their are any other factors to consider. SUBJECT: Language\processing Date: 97-09-22 20:20:14 EST From: KJVman I'm looking for any information on the educational disorder! My daughter has been classified and I have little information about it. She is an honor role student! At present. I forsee a major change in the future reguarding her grades if this problem is not corrected, but I am uncertain how to help her. Can anyone direct me or enlighten me. Thanks, e-mail KJVman@aol.com. SUBJECT: Want to Discontinue Therapy Date: 97-09-23 10:08:58 EST From: Wilstock My hearing/speech impaired three-year-old is a "non-attending" student at a public elem. school where she recently began full-days opposed to half-days. Last week she suffered head injuries from falling from the top of school playground's monkey bars (10ft. up) onto the cement ground underneath. She received several stitches on the head, a painful and unsightly swelling and bruises to the side of her face. Five days later, she is her old self again. I am told by the superintendent of public schools that all city playgrounds must have either rubber padding or wood chips under equipment. The school's principal said they are unaware that children were on the playground during recess, as the playground had been closed for two years. Padding is slated to be installed in October. I asked teacher in charge how did this happen? She says one minute my child was on grassy ground, the next minute, falling from top of bars onto the cement. She says it happened so fast. THere are only four other children, 3-5 year olds in the pre-K hearing impaired class. I am sure it would have taken some time for her to climb up and across the bars. There are two adults, a teacher and an aid. Teacher told me herself that the playground was off limits because the padding was not installed. SO HOW did this happen? She has not given me a satifactory answer yet, and I am convinced that she was negligent in doing her job. People think I am overreacting when I say I don't want her back in that school, or any other school, that she needs her hearing/speech therapy, that it was not that serious, etc. I have spoken with several attorneys and they say the schools are immune of litigation. What should I do? I have looked into private therapy and cannot afford unless I relinquish raising my 3 and 1 year olds and go out to work full-time. Is there a way for a parent to work with a speech and hearing impaired child at home? I have sat in on a session with the pathologist, and honestly, it did not look like something that would be beyond the scope of my learning to do myself. I am NOT trying to downplay the profession of speech/language pathologists. It just seems like if I had access to the same equipment (headphone/mic units--hearing aids are pending) I could help my child just as well. Please understand my position here. It certainly was not the pathologist's fault that my daughter got hurt. But in the meantime, my child will not be going back to that school. It is so unsettling to know that when she has bad experiences while away all day she cannot tell me about it after she comes home. Any input or advice is appreciated. SUBJECT: Re:stuttering Date: 97-09-24 20:16:47 EST From: DIremonger Tou can get a lot of good info from the Stuttering Foundation of America. I dont have the address with me but I believe they have a toll free number. SUBJECT: KDG. Screening no ans. Date: 97-09-25 23:02:10 EST From: Devster 7 It seems that no answer is really apparent RE kdg screening. We all seem to be in the same boat. In MA it's mandated that they receive speech screening. We use the screening portions of the CELF PreSchl (ie. Basic Concepts, Word Structure) and the artic. portion of the PLS (Zimmermann). We are not happy with this but can't seem to find better. Someone mentioned investigating the mandate to see if the SLP must do the screening... that's on my "TO DO" list next week. Everyone's feedback is always so prompt and so helpful...even when the solution is not found, it's comforting to know one is not alone. Thanks everyone. SUBJECT: Fast Forward Date: 97-09-25 23:19:05 EST From: Stephenr The parents of one of my second grade language students is in the process of beginning a program called "Fast Forward". It was described as a 6 month intensive treatment with a visiting speech/language pathologist monitoring. Has anyone heard of the details of this program? I'm somewhat concerned because this child has moderate to severe deficits and I don't want these parents to think that it will be a "quick fix". Any info will be appreciated! Thanks! Pat SUBJECT: Re:Fast Forwardi Date: 97-09-26 07:02:30 EST From: SPCHRGM If you want info on this topic, check out this web site: http;www.scilearn.com. Since I haven't used it with clients, I can't speak to how it actually works,,,Regina SUBJECT: Restricted Lingual Frenum Date: 97-09-26 14:20:50 EST From: K for 5 Just a question - - - I know the signs of a restricted lingual frenum (heart-shaped tongue tip, difficulty elevating for tongue click, for /t,d/, etc) but I am unsure of what criteria a physician would look for when deciding if the frenum should be "clipped". Any ideas? SUBJECT: Re:Restricted Lingual Frenum Date: 97-09-26 15:48:49 EST From: ShelleyHL I would imagine that a physician would look for very restricted tongue mobility which would affect eating and speaking significantly. In my experiences in the past unless there were functional problems, the frenulum was not clipped. I have also seen youngsters who have adequate mobility for speaking, but not eating. For example, if they were eating a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, they would not be able to move their tongue up and back sufficiently to move the bolus of food around the mouth. For very young children this can be hazardous...plus the kiddos need to resort to using their fingers to move the food around...very messy indeed. SUBJECT: Re:KDG. Screening no ans. Date: 97-09-26 17:50:46 EST From: Willsons When we are told certain practices are mandated or "supposed to be done this way," where do we go to check on that information? At times adminstrators will insist on screening, certain paperwork, or formats of reports, or parent contact procedures for students with IEPs . . . and then suddenly another year, it's not so important. Where do we read the mandates for kindergarten screening? (State Education Office?) Where do we find the "official" policy on how many times we must attempt to contact parents for various reasons? (Special Ed Library on AOL?) Where does it describe the form to be used to turn in therapy attendance records and documentation of 2xmo. collaboration so the District can be reimbursed by Medicaid? I want to read these edicts for myself. Are they in various places on AOL? I don't mind complying! I mind getting conflicting or incomplete direction. Thanks. SUBJECT: Re:Restricted Lingual Frenum Date: 97-09-26 17:51:38 EST From: DIremonger From what I understand, clipping the frenum is usually not done anymore especially for speech purposes. From what I have read, most experts not longer believe that articulation deficits are caused by a restricted frenum except under very unusual circumstances. SUBJECT: selective autism Date: 97-09-26 18:10:22 EST From: CSAB51 I have two students in my school that are in this category. Not much research is available to the public school slp. any suggestions. SUBJECT: Re:Fast Forward Date: 97-09-26 18:18:52 EST From: Bre5 My son completed 8 weeks of Fast ForWord at a clinic, and after a 3 week break for the start of school, he is now continuing for 2 or 3 more weeks. The usual amount of time is from 4 to 8 weeks, not months, but many children continue for up tp 12 weeks. The children must do the one hour and forty minutes of games at least 5 days a week. It consists of several computer "games" which give the children digitally stretched out speech sounds, as phonemes and in sentences, as well as tones/musical pitches for them to match or identify or comprehend in some way. The theory is that some language impaired children cannot hear many consonants at the rate they are presented, but that their brains are able to be "rewired" with enough training. So they first hear these sounds artificially stretched out, and when the child scores high enough, the sounds are slowly shortened down to normal length. I don't think there is research on the long term benefits, since the therapy is new, but the pre and post test comparisons are impressive. Most children gain a lot in speech test scores. My son went from Severe to Mild on the CELF-3 in the 8 weeks. Since he didn't reach a very high level in two of the most crucial games, like the one where he tries to remember the presentation order of a high and low tone, we decided to continue for a little longer. SUBJECT: Re: Medicaid Date: 97-09-26 18:19:06 EST From: CSAB51 In response to the SLP just begining to do Medicaid billing. Wait until you have been doing five or six years . We have developed our own daily log that helps us submit billings daily. This has helped greatly. Streamline your forms and it may help. SUBJECT: Re: Elective/Selective Mute Date: 97-09-26 18:45:16 EST From: WVV Hiker Greetings, Here are the addresses for the "Selective Mutism Foundation, Inc." and they provide excellent info. They request that when writing to them for info, please send a business sized self addressed envelope with 2 stamps ($.64) All correspondence should include a note indicating whether the writer is a parent, a professional, etc. That way they can mail the appropriate information. There are 2 addresses: Sue Newman, Co-Director Carolyn Miller, Co-Director Box 450632 Box 13133 Sunrise, FL 33345 Sissonville, WV 25360 I think you will find it very beneficial to write to them regarding your student who does not speak. My student will speak at home; but not at school, not even to other students in the first grade...... and their brochures help us to understand. Anne SUBJECT: Re:KDG. Screening no ans. Date: 97-09-27 09:55:54 EST From: ShelleyHL You school system should have a document of district policies. The state department of education for your state will have state wide mandates. Call them. SUBJECT: Re: Medicaid Date: 97-09-27 10:11:02 EST From: Willsons I'm not new. :-) At one time I was an itinerant and each school district required a different form to relay the same information for Medicaid. A person of authority in my current school district sternly lectured all of the special education personnel about filling out these forms (I had done mine faithfully), and implied there was a specific form required, yet didn't have a sample to show us. We'll work it out. However, if you have a form that you think is particulary good - streamlined and purposeful - I'd love to see it. SUBJECT: Re:KDG. Screening no ans. Date: 97-09-27 10:11:48 EST From: Willsons Thanks Shelley. Somehow I knew you would have the answer. It's just common sense, yet sometimes we get so busy we don't pursue those basics. I probably have those papers filed right in my room! SUBJECT: New Speech Teacher ?'s Date: 97-09-27 13:31:45 EST From: VTFarm Hi. I just took over a 40-student caseload for a speech pathologist that flew the coop right before school opened this fall ... lots to be done here!. I'd appreciate your suggestions and ideas on how to best assist 1) AD/HD students with artic, expressive & receptive lang problems, 2) a K student who's on IEP for artic, expressive & receptive lang & "borderline Tourette's" (new one on me), and 3) an 8-year old who can hear a lawn mower start up on the other side of school, but says "what?" at my every question & lives in a fog (autism was suggested, but not proved yet). I look forward to your replies - thanks in advance! -O SUBJECT: Re:caseload in Calif. Date: 97-09-28 00:41:38 EST From: Regroot I per 1000 students seems abit off to me. I work in Stanislaus County and all I know is that we have to qualify for IPS units from the state. These are shared with the entire county based on an "average" caselaod of 55. If you had 1 per 1000 that would mean an average caseload of approx. 100 students per therapist. HUMMMM.... let me know what you find out. Beth SUBJECT: Comp. Software Date: 97-09-28 00:49:36 EST From: Regroot If any one has any good speech/language software for IBM/windows please E Mail me at: Regroot. Our district is purchasing some now and so far we have not made very good selections. Thank you in advance for your time!!!!! Beth SUBJECT: Re:Comp. Software Date: 97-09-28 07:38:20 EST From: SPCHRGM Can you be more specific as to what areas of software you are interested in? Lang? Gen artic? Voice and Voicing? Hearing Impaired?Central Auditory Processing? I'd be happy to suggest some titles if you can point me in the direction of what you are looking for...some good genegral software...Edmark: Bailey's Book House Davidson Ready for School My First Encyclopedia Jump Start Series Jump Start Preschool, Kindergarten, etc. Microsoft Magic School Bus Davidson Kid Phonics(one of my faves!!!) Ready for School The Learning Company Reader Rabbit 2 There is also software specific to artic,etc. Post back and I'll try to help...Regina SUBJECT: Re:Comp. Software Date: 97-09-28 10:21:59 EST From: ShelleyHL If you are looking for programs for the more severely handicapped, look at Laureate's programs (First Nouns, First Verbs, etc). These are not hard to manage and I've used them with the MR and autistic populations. Personally, I'd stay away from the Living Books that are only stories. If you want to buy these try ones which teach a skill within the story (Chicka-Chicka Boom Boom for alphabet, for example). StickyBear Early Learning Series is also good for prek. I have also been looking at some ESL programs to teach vocabulary. So far the best I've found is one called, "All in One Language Fun." The other programs I have seen so far are not geared for the primary level which is where I work. Our computer tech just ordered one called, "First 1000 Words" but it is backordered so I don't have any first hand experience with it. SUBJECT: supervising a student SLP Date: 97-09-28 17:06:54 EST From: LCVRUDA I am about to begin a semester supervising a student clinician at my school where I work with children in grades 3 to 6. I want the experience to be a good one for him and I'm looking for SLP's who have had experience with this before. What are the do's and don'ts? How did you set up the practicum? Did it take a lot of time away from your other responsibilites, etc. I will be anxious to hear from anyone who has done this. Thank you. L. Ruda SUBJECT: Re:mouth breather, artic. Date: 97-09-28 17:59:40 EST From: OromotorSP I read your message about tongue thrusting/interdental lisp and am really happy that you will be at my class next month. I promise that I will teach you at least 5 specific exercises that you can use to eliminate the habitual tongue forward posture. In the meantime, have the client drink through a straw. Measure how far it goes into his/her mouth. If it goes in more than 1/4 inch, see if she is biting or sucking on it. If so, she is exercising her tongue protrusion everytime she drinks. Try to teach her to drink using only her lips. That will teach tongue retraction. Good luck. Sara Rosenfeld-Johnson SUBJECT: use of ASL w/ normal hearing Date: 97-09-28 20:56:48 EST From: Melism1 HELP PLEASE: I'm working toward a degree in special ed, but I also am a lead teacher for an afterschool program that consists of kids with all kinds of disabilities. Many of them, though they have normal hearing, are taught some basic sign. I'm trying to do some research for both a class and my personal benefit... Can anybody lead me in the right direction to where I might be able to find some concrete information about the use of Sign with children who are Autistic, have Down's etc... I'd greaty appreciate any info. Melissa Melism1 SUBJECT: Re:use of ASL w/ normal hearin Date: 97-09-28 22:01:03 EST From: WVV Hiker Hi Melissa, I too have been interested in the use of fingerspelling/sign language for improvement of reading, apraxia, etc. I found some helpful info, and other interesting messages in the section of the special ed message board dealing with sign language, which I think is listed below this area on the screen of all the different titles......Happy reading to you :) Anne SUBJECT: Fast forward Date: 97-09-30 15:22:29 EST From: Ljhays Can anyone tell me what the Fast Forward program costs. I am trying to see if it would benefit my son who has articulation problems. SUBJECT: Re:Fast forward Date: 97-09-30 16:32:20 EST From: ShelleyHL I'm going to the ASHA convention in Boston and am very much looking forward to the product displays. Fast Forward will be on display there, as will many other products we hear about from others. The displays give me a chance to look at and try some products that I've heard about or read about. Sometimes the catalogs just aren't clear enough. I've gotten some fabulous therapy material ideas from the ASHA displays. Actually, they're my favorite part of the convention. SUBJECT: Re:Fast forward Date: 97-09-30 20:35:34 EST From: SPCHRGM As a parent, you can only "purchase" the therapy which is a little steep if articulation is his only problem. If, however, his articulation problem is related to a Central Auditory Processing Problem, it might be worth investigating. It's relatively new and therapists are being trained to do it at workshops...talk to your SLP before doing anything else...Regina SUBJECT: Re:Fast forward Date: 97-09-30 20:43:29 EST From: SPCHRGM By the way, the web site for FastForword is http://www.scilearn.com Regina SUBJECT: Re: Aphasia Date: 97-10-01 14:46:04 EST From: Carol123d What was the variance from performance IQ and verbal IQ? You need to find that out... Aphasic kids CAN learn...they need to be visually supported. I am a parent of an aphasic student as well. It is hard for the schools (& scary for parents) because aphasia is usually found in nursing homes, not in schools, so the expertise will probably have to be brought in. I would suggest the team work with 2 key individuals...a neuropsychologist who has EXPERIENCE with aphasia/brain injuried children, and an EXPERIENCED aphasia trained speech and language person. Often, your district will not have these two people on board...so they need to be hired as consultants. Unfortunately, some kids are expensive....and this child should likely have a technology assessment done as well. He should have a lap top with things like Co:Writer, Write Out Loud, and perhaps voice recognition software. Some teachers (& more often admistrators) bulk at the expense. But, the IDEA and ADA are there to protect that each child is taught in a way that he can learn. Sometimes people think that FAIR is to teach each child the same...but fairness is finding the ways that this student CAN learn. I've got a list of modifications that have worked for us...and am working currently on a collaborative program for teachers/parents for kids with severe language disabilities. I'd be happy to discuss or help you or the parents if I can. Hopefully, you don't go to due process....but you've got to understand the parents view too...it is a scarey thing..as they are the ones that will be left holding the bag when he's 18 if the school fails him...so they need move into an advocacy position as well. Unfortunately, the system is failing many of these kids. With my son, they tried to place him with mentally retarded children too. Thank GOD I got that stopped! His performance IQ is nearly 130, although the verbal IQ is quite low. He CAN learn...but needs a ton of support to meet his needs. Imagine where he'd be today if I hadn't advocated....I shudder to think! He has a full time one on one aide, speech every day 1:1 and modifications in place. It isn't easy, in fact...it is a struggle for us all...but David didn't ask to have a stroke...and these kids CAN succeed. None of us want them on the Social security roles at 18! We have a responsiblity...morally as well as legally. It can be hard to advocate too as a teacher...I know that administations can draw the lines...but it is your signature on the IEP too...and the law clearly is on the side of the child. If I were you....I'd advocate for the child so I could sleep well at night, knowing I'd done what was right. I am speaking at the aphasia conference in June on aphasia/school issues. If you have ideas/concerns/needs...let me know. My goal is to help parents and teachers truly team together for the sake of the child. Let me know if I can help...carol123d@aol.com. SUBJECT: Educators/SPL please read! Date: 97-10-01 14:55:21 EST From: Carol123d I'm speaking at a conference regarding the re-entry of language impaired students into their home schools following stroke/TBI/disease. What challenges are you finding at your schools? What is your case load like? Do you have time to adequately educate these kids? Are you finding support (aids/inservice) to inclusion? What are your questions? Are there appropriate modications being made? Is technology supported in your school? How? Let me know what on your mind...it will help me develop a more appropriate presentation with "real life" examples/concerns. If you email me..let me know if you'd like to be informed about the presentation and literature that can be downloaded later and I'll send the presentation back to you upon completion. No names/districts will be used. Email me at carol123d@aol.com SUBJECT: Re: Aphasia Date: 97-10-01 17:26:53 EST From: R u Niz Both Performance and Verbal IQ's were in the Mentally Retarded Range. There is no history of stroke. I am not suggesting that this student be "labeled" retarded--I do think that he has a Cognitive Disability. Parents have decided now that his problems will be solved when he gets his new Scotopic lenses. I am losing my mind. SUBJECT: Re:Robyn - Multiple labels Date: 97-10-01 18:31:15 EST From: Enunse8 DITTO!! I am an SLP who can't accomplish any thing because I have no time!! SUBJECT: Re: Aphasia Date: 97-10-01 18:39:49 EST From: Ratatat Oh, Lord. Could you suggest they attempt a trial with cellophane sheets first? Same result, lots less time and a lot less money. The scotopic lens evaluations and glasses are EXPENSIVE and there is absolutely NO research to support their use. SUBJECT: Re:Want to Discontinue Therapy Date: 97-10-01 20:16:21 EST From: TLVAIL Dear concerned mom- You have every right to be upset. You are trusting the care of your child to the schoo personel and have every reason to expect her to be well cared for. I'm sure her teachers feel awful too! However, your daughter needs consistent therapy from trained professionals. If I were you I would call a meeting of all involved to discuss her program and ensure that something like this will never happen again! The team may want to consider an additional assistant if supervision is not adequate or a different play area. The important thing is to keep yourself part of the team and work through the problem. It's a fine line for parents to be advocates without becoming adversarial. In the best interest of your child, she needs to continue therapy- It is *not* something you can do at home with a tape recorder and headphones!! SUBJECT: Re:Speech therapy Date: 97-10-01 21:41:31 EST From: Erechen My six year old son is hearing impaired and receives services of a teacher of the hearing impaired and a speech therapist in a public school. He worked with the same speech therapist during his kindergarten year and she worked exclusively on the TH sound. Not being educated in the field of speech and language, I thought she knew what she was doing. During this past summer, I felt he needed to continue speech therapy so he worked privately with a therapist who had worked with him in preschool and made unbelievable progress. She informed me that because of the constant drilling of the TH sound, my son has a lisp and has regressed. To make matters even better, he has to work with this same therapist this year. I had the private therapist report her findings to the school therapist and she openly admitted that she hasn't had "recent experience working with a hearing impaired child". The assistant principal told me perhaps "a deaf school is the answer". I have the private therapist working with my son one day a week throughout the school year and am fighting with my insurance to help pay for it. But I am still disappointed in my district who feel the answer to the inexperience of the speech therapist is to have the hearing impaired teacher keep an eye on her. That poor teacher works between 2 districts and doesn't have to train this woman. I have sought the help of a parent mediator and I just wanted more input before I speak to the school board etc. P.S. my son doesn't require special ed setting and functions very well with the use of his hearing aids and auditory trainer,so the comment of the asst. principal was truly ignorant. Thanks! Erechen SUBJECT: Re:KDG. Screening no ans. Date: 97-10-01 23:13:13 EST From: Devster 7 My concerns and questions are the same as those posted by"Willsons" on 9/26/97. SUBJECT: I need ideas.. Date: 97-10-01 23:38:20 EST From: DIremonger One of the children on my caseload is a 6 year old developmentally delayed, in a class for severely handicapped. He is non-verbal, has global cognitive delays and behavior problems. His nother (who happens to also work for our district as an OT) wants a PLAN for her son so that he can communicate. He knows a few signs.(But wont use them spontaneously) A picture communication system was tried but so far he is very concrete and pictures are pretty meaningless. This population is not my expertise but I feel that I am expected to be the one to create this PLAN and help implement it. Any ideas?? SUBJECT: Re: Aphasia Date: 97-10-02 17:04:45 EST From: R u Niz Ratatat--You made me chuckle. I knew if you saw the note about the scotopic lenses you would respond. When the parents announced at the IEP meeting that the problems their child was experiencing was due to SSS and offered to lend one of my colleagues the book, I told them I had a copy of the book. I asked them if they knew of any recent research because the last I'd heard there was none that truly supported Irlen's claims--only research performed by Irlen specialists--testimonials. They immediately handed me a list of six references. I checked them out--they were all by Irlen specialists--and I found a few others that were very negative toward Irlen. Now I have to find a non-threatening way to share this information. Unfortunately, I know these particular parents will not listen. I am being very supportive of the student with the overlay--encouraging the use of the overlay, reminding the student to use it. After two days, the novelty has worn off and the student doesn't seem to want to use it. I have seen no difference in this student's ability with or without the overlay, but Mom claims it is miraculous. We are waiting for the glasses... SUBJECT: Re: Aphasia Date: 97-10-02 19:41:09 EST From: Ratatat < I checked them out--they were all by Irlen specialists--and I found a few others that were very negative toward Irlen.> Exactly my experience check our the Irlen lenses. What's interesting too is that the Irlen people want you to have an a thorough eye exam before they begin their evaluation... and guess what? They give you the name of the optometrist to use. Duh. OTOH, speak to almost any pediatric ophthalmologist and get ready for an earful about what garbage the Irlen leses are. SUBJECT: picture communication boards Date: 97-10-02 20:18:52 EST From: Girafe58 Hi! I am very excited to have found this message board! What a thrill! I am presently working in a private special education school servicing a wide range of children with varying difficulties ages preschool through 10 years of age. Our program is in the process of developing an augmentative communication program in a classroom of prelinguistic/preverbal-early verbal children. I am in the process of writing a proposal and developing a grant to fund this program. It will be picture board based with each child having a representation of the activity-board as well the facilitator who will be conducting the lesson. Any ideas for resources? Activities? Thanks so much for sharing. Donna SUBJECT: Re:selective autism Date: 97-10-02 21:36:43 EST From: Carjoja Just a couple of questions, before I tell if I could help or not, I teach autistic children in an inclusion setting 1/2 day/ Lovaas program the other 1/2, and I have an autistic child myself. First off, SELECTIVE autism??? That's a new one on me. Where did that label come from, pray tell?Also, what are the ages of the students, current language abilities, etc?? I am interested. Dawn SUBJECT: Re:New Speech Teacher ?'s Date: 97-10-02 21:43:02 EST From: Carjoja Might be able to help you on #3/ suspect of autism: Tell the school psychologist you want a CARS test done on the child (something Autism Rating Scale) or GARS (can't even remember what that one stands for)! If it turns out to be, let me know, I might be able to help. I sort of specialize in autism. I'm a parent of one and teacher of students with autism. Dawn SUBJECT: Re: Selective Mutism/Autism Date: 97-10-02 22:11:48 EST From: WVV Hiker Greetings, I have just heard of the selective mutism.....checked back and my messages say mutism......perhaps the person who wrote autism had many things on her mind..... selective autism would be even more interesting! Anne SUBJECT: Re:Restricted Lingual Frenum Date: 97-10-02 23:51:46 EST From: DebOnWeb30 Lingual frenums have an impact on dental structure and development as well as on speech and eating. I have a child on my caseload who recently was "clipped" after consultation with an orthodontist. I had noted the tight lingual frenum to his parents, and had suggested that it was interfering with his speech (articulation of /r/), but I stopped short of ever making a recommendation about it being clipped (for one thing, his dad was a dentist!). It was interesting that it ended up "needing" to be clipped for dental reasons. I agree that it may not be a common problem for our articulation cases, but it still does come up and it definitely can impair speech production if the frenum is restrictive enough. On another note, I have another child on my caseload who had his frenum clipped almost 2 years ago (before I even started at this school). He has terrible tongue control now--it has a tendency to flip over when he tries to move it into position for /r/. This is the only sound he cannot "get" yet, but he is in 4th grade, and I am at a loss....I have sent oral-motor exercises home, but I don't think he really does them much. It is very difficult to do oral-motor stuff in a therapy group, because he gets too self-consious (especially if the others in the group don't need to be doing it), and I don't have the luxury within my caseload numbers to work with him alone. His mom was planning on contacting this oro-facial myologist in our area, to see if that might help, but she hasn't done that yet (I had expected her to do this over the summer). Right now, he has been put on "consult" because the student has been in speech therapy for years (many other sounds have been succesfully corrected), and really needs a break. But what to do for him....? Any suggestions would be appreciated! Thanks (and sorry this is so long). Debby SUBJECT: Re:Restricted Lingual Frenum Date: 97-10-03 05:30:37 EST From: MareCash I have two students on my caseload who also arein 4th gade and just can not seem to get the /r/ sound down. And I haev tried everything. I will be interested to see any comments you receive form your post. I also am interested in the comments about doing oral moor excercises in groups. I am in the same boat - a large caseload - no time for the individual therapy. I am going to Sara Rosenfeld Johnson's conference in Albany NY this month. I hope to pick up some good info. I can share it at a later date. SUBJECT: Re:Speech therapy Date: 97-10-03 07:13:48 EST From: SPCHRGM I don't know why your school SLP was working on /th/, but since she is the one working with him during the year, have you tried: 1. Meeting with all parties, i.e. like a child study meeting to coordinate goals? Sounds like a communication problem here . 2. Having the two SLP's sit down together and coordinate goals and objectives. Since the private SLP knows more about the hearing impaired, she could help the school SLP. As a private therapist myself(who does some work in the schools) I am not at all adverse to sitting down with a school based SLP when we share clients or even to discuss transitions. Not all SLP's are educated in working with the hearing impaired(or autistic, or other"specialty areas"). When I was working in the schools I got more proficient at what I dealt with on a day to day basis and that tended to be artic. and language. Its also one of the reasons I am a private therapist now...more variety and a chance to do more "special populations) 3. Have the school district pay for the child's private therapy if they cannot provide the service. This is what happens sometimes when the school cannot provide what the child needs. Your child has the right to appropriate therapy. I would try to coordinate services first if the therapists are not adversarial. Get your director of Special Education Involved. I would also use the teacher of the Hearing Impaired as a resource...after all, the goal is to help your child...Regina . SUBJECT: Upcoming Earobics Exhibits Date: 97-10-03 15:39:07 EST From: Concepts1 Hello! A number of professionals & parents have been asking about conferences at which Cognitive Concepts, Inc. will be exhibiting the Earobics Auditory Development & Phonics CD-ROM programs. Here's a list of the conferences we will be attending in October and November 1997. We hope to see you there! Symposium on the Assessment & Management of Central Auditory Processing Disorders, October 17-18 at the Ramada Plaza Hotel in Greenville, NC. Sponsored by East Carolina University, 919-816-5205. The International Dyslexia Association 48th Annual Conference, November 12-15 at the Hyatt Regency Hotel in Minneapolis, MN. Booth #119. Sponsored by the Orton Dyslexia Association, 410-296-0232. The American Speech-Language-Hearing Association 1997 Annual Convention, November 20-23 in Boston, MA. Booth #229. Sponsored by the American Speech-Language-Hearing Association, 301-897-5700. For more information about Earobics, please visit our website at www.cogcon.com. SUBJECT: Re:Comp. Software Date: 97-10-03 17:20:12 EST From: Peggy 620 There is a fabulous program called "Simon Sounds it Out" made by Don Johnston. I have the Mac version but I think it may also be available for Windows I know they were working on it). SUBJECT: Re:Fast forward Date: 97-10-03 17:43:30 EST From: Peggy 620 The FastForward program is VERY expensive. The parents have to buy the CD which costs $800. Then you need Internet access with Netscape Navigator (AOL does NOT work). I believe your computer needs at least 24 MGs of Ram also. Then the program can only be administered by a certified therapist. Most of them charge between $1000 and $3000 for the 2-4 month course of the program. If your medical insurance pays for speech therapy and your private SLP is certified for FastForward, your insurance may pick up most of the cost (but not the cost of the CD). Don't forget to add in your time - most kids need to have someone sit with them to keep them on task at least for the first 2 weeks, and sometimes longer. The program requires almost 2 hours every day, 5 days a week. SUBJECT: Re:I need ideas.. Date: 97-10-03 22:28:23 EST From: JBlakeG you said that you tried pictures, but what kind. Maybe you need to start by finding out at waht level of symbolic representation he is at. Maybe he needs to start with an object board, or a photo board. Maybe the line drawings used were too vague, or not concrete enough. Perhaps you have availability to an Assistive Technology Resource that could help you with an informal assessement. Good luck! And don't give up. Also think about how you are training him. With severly disabled, make the "training" part of a daily routine. Model the use of the pics as you would the speech. YOU need to use the pics as you would want him to. That was a really good lesson for me to learn. If you want more specific info, you can email me at JBlakeG@aol.com SUBJECT: Re:picture communication board Date: 97-10-03 22:30:56 EST From: JBlakeG Donna- Are you by any chance working in Morris County NJ? If you are, I know who you are, and you know me. Pleae email me if you know Mindy, Arlene, Daryl, and Helen and Betsy!!! JBlakeG@aol.com SUBJECT: Re:Restricted Lingual Frenum Date: 97-10-03 22:34:23 EST From: JBlakeG Yea, that r is a bugger! Try "Oral Motor Techniques for Articulation Threapy" it's either Pamela Marshalla or Sara Rosenfeld-Johnson. It has helped me in the past!!! Julie SUBJECT: children developing own lang Date: 97-10-04 13:26:41 EST From: Aim a roo I'm looking for information (books, authors..) on children who use their own ways of communicating similar to twins' language. SUBJECT: Re:Fast forward Date: 97-10-05 08:57:20 EST From: Galiemla I was just browsing the net and found an interesting site that includes some messages from people who have used Fast Forward. You might find it interesting. The address is http://thearc.org/wwwboard/messages/3439/html SUBJECT: jobs available Date: 97-10-05 20:11:07 EST From: Choatie There are several openings for speech pathologists in the Clark County School System in Nevada. At this time we are the 10th largest district in the country. There are tremendous opportunities for advancement and training. If any SLPs are interested please e-mail me and I will be happy to share the particulars. Thanks! SUBJECT: fastforward Date: 97-10-06 20:51:15 EST From: BPA20 I would like information on a computerized speech program called FastForward. It is an intensive six week program for children with speech problems. Please let me know of any successes and/or failures. SUBJECT: Whole Language Date: 97-10-06 22:18:38 EST From: RSamuel179 I am a speech path. graduate student looking for articles of whole language (pro and cons) for a paper. would appreciate any info. thanks SUBJECT: Re:I need ideas.. Date: 97-10-07 18:44:52 EST From: TLVAIL I would come up with 10 basic words that everyone on the team wants him to be able to communicate as a beginning "core" vocabulary. Then, try matching pictures to objects/actions, progressing to identifying pictures. At the same time, continue with the signs and make sure everyone working with him knows the signs and uses them with him throughout the day. If pictures don't end up working (can't associate) you can try using the actual objects as an "exchange" system. The key is to be sure communication training is going on all through the school day and at home or you won't get very far! You also might try using some switches for frequent phrases like"I need help" or "I need to use the bathroom". Good Luck! SUBJECT: Re:picture communication board Date: 97-10-07 18:46:54 EST From: TLVAIL Donna- The Myer Johnson Boardmaker program and the "engineering Preschool Classrooms" books would be very helpful! SUBJECT: Re:Comp. Software Date: 97-10-07 23:30:58 EST From: Beanie7783 I am interested in software (IBM windows) to use with Deaf Elementary-High School kids. Computer programs for Deaf/Hearing High School students that will teach"functional" language skills that will help in transition. Vocabulary building, sequencing skills, verb tense practice...Also any software report or record keeping programs you all are using would help me also...I am appplying for a lap top via Tech fund proposal. I would appreciate e-mail if any of you have ideas! Thanks Beanie7783 SUBJECT: Re:picture communication board Date: 97-10-08 15:26:10 EST From: ShelleyHL We have found that photographs of the actual items work better than the Meyer Johnson drawings for some children. It's just one less step for them to take. We photograph the "tne most wanted items" and usually items from the classroom like the centers or bathroom. If the child can make the transition from the real thing to black line drawings than the Mayer Johnson pictures are fine. SUBJECT: Re:Restricted Lingual Frenum Date: 97-10-10 19:58:20 EST From: Pnducharme About a year and a half ago, I posted an inquiry concerning my young son's severely restricted lingual frenulum. The information and e-mail I received was quite helpful! In fact, I used the information to further research the issue, which ultimately resulted in our son having surgery in July to clip the frenulum. My son, who is 3 and 1/2, still needs speech therapy for articulation problems; he also has not yet learned how to elevate his tongue. However, I expect that he will learn to do so over time, with the continued intervention of therapists. What is interesting to me is the pervasive view in the medical field that clipping is just not necessary. Once we actively pursued the issue, we were startled to find out that it IS being done. Our surgeon told us that he personally does one per month. While this is obviously not a huge number, it shows that the technique is required on occasion. SUBJECT: Re:picture communication boa Date: 97-10-13 16:29:03 EST From: AmyL38 Hi, I have found that actual photographs representing people. places and things in the child's life to be more effective than graphics. This is especially true for those whose cognitive level is lower in the severe to mild range. For the profound students, I actually used objects, for the tactile and 3 dimension visual information. For those with sensory impairments (Visual and Auditory) I combined olfactory cues with tactile cue. For more information please e-mail me at AmyL38@aol.com. SUBJECT: PROMPT Date: 97-10-13 17:49:03 EST From: LeftyCMG I recently received a copy of a student's oral-motor evaluation conducted by an associate of Sara Rosenfeld-Johnson. In the recommendations section it mentions feeding therapy, oral-motor exercises, etc. It also recommended utilizing "PROMPT." I am not familiar with this program(?) and would appreciate help from anyone who has any experience with it. Thanks a bunch, Colleen SUBJECT: Re:Receiving Services Date: 97-10-13 21:12:55 EST From: ACTDS What merits whether a child receives language services, if you have a private evaluation that shows a functioning very low in receptive and expressive language. He presents difficulties in receptive/expressive language skills, receptive/expressive vocabulary skills and language processing. Expressive language skills are characterized by decreased verbal organization/sequencing, and decreased ability to formulate compound/ complex sentences. Receptively, he demonstrates difficulty comprehending many linguistic concepts, following oral directions, understanding surface structure of language, recalling and understanding information from oral paragraphs, and making predictions and inferences. I do visit the classroom, he is desperately trying to be a part of the mainstream English class with support of a special education assistant. I want to work with our IEP team, however I feel there might be some opposition from some of the team. We have a meeting scheduled to talk about whether our son merit being coded. I live in New Hampshire and I am not aware of the laws for coding children. The facility I utilized was the same facility I was sent to in the beginning of the school year by the school. The facility and evaluator had told us that there was no way that the school could ignore these finding and not offer some services. I am just being nervous or is there anything else I should do? Please help me. Micky SUBJECT: Re:Frenulum Date: 97-10-14 01:39:56 EST From: NMCHILI Does anyone know the medical term for clipping of the frenulum....is it a frenectomy? I am writing a report and would like to use the correct "medical term" for this procedure. Thanks, Cheryl (NMCHILI) Also would be interested in goals anyone has written for phonemic awareness as it relates to articulation/phonological process disorders. ....Now that I'm on a roll, does anyone know of a book or articles dealing with CAPD? I have been hearing so much about this but feel like I don't understand what it really is or it's identifying behaviors. I have a hard time just explaining what an auditory processing disorder is...it is an extremely broad subject which overlaps many areas....help me!(I'm a SLP in an elementary school). You can e-mail me @NMCHILI@aol Thanks a bunch! ;_0 SUBJECT: Re:Receiving Services Date: 97-10-14 06:16:14 EST From: Ratatat < We have a meeting scheduled to talk about whether our son merit being coded. I live in New Hampshire and I am not aware of the laws for coding children. The facility I utilized was the same facility I was sent to in the beginning of the school year by the school. The facility and evaluator had told us that there was no way that the school could ignore these finding and not offer some services. > Each state has it's own specific definitions of what qualifies as eligibility requirements for a child being catagorized as Specific Learning Disabled. You need to get a copy of the rule and procedures, which are on file with your district offices. You should plan on becoming VERY familiar, even expert, on the laws, rules and procedures so that you can best advocate for your child and make sure his needs are appropriately met through an IEP (INDIVIDUALIZED Education Program). Also, see if you can find a copy of "Negotiating the Special Education Maze, third edition." It's an important resource. SUBJECT: Re:Frenulum Date: 97-10-14 06:17:55 EST From: Ratatat <....Now that I'm on a roll, does anyone know of a book or articles dealing with CAPD?> Do you know of the book by Patricia McAleer Hamaguchi, "Childhood Speech, Language and Listening Problems." SUBJECT: Re:Frenum Date: 97-10-14 07:47:32 EST From: Lmazzola Yes, clipping the frenum is called a frenectomy. My daughter had it done several years ago because the frenum was too long and thick (sounds pretty gross ;-). Lisa SUBJECT: Oral-Motor Supplies Date: 97-10-14 14:36:44 EST From: DebOnWeb30 Does anyone know of a good resource for such oral-motor supplies as Toothettes, Ora-Swabs, jaw resistance bands, tubing, tongue depressors, nose flutes, etc...? I know you can buy them from Speech Dynamics, but am wondering if there is a more economical source. Thanks! e mail me at DebOnWeb30 SUBJECT: Re:Receiving Services Date: 97-10-14 15:08:13 EST From: ShelleyHL There is more information needed here to determine if this child needs services and what type would be indicated. I'm assuming that the receptive and expressive language delays are significant (1-1 to 1/2 standard deviations below the mean for the child's age). That being the case, I would wonder what other data has been collected. How does the child perform in his classes at school? Look at portfolios of actual work. Look at progress across all school areas including special subjects (art, pe, music). Has this child had a comprehensive evaluation...educational and psychological? The child's overall cognitive ability should be taken into consideration. For example, if the child's ability is average the therapy might be different than if it, too, was in the very low range. Are there any acuity (vision, hearing) difficulties that could be impacting the growth of speech/language skills? How about medical issues? How was overall development (walking, talking, etc.)? How are the child's daily adaptive skills and social skills? I know these a lots of questions, but when a child's language scores are in the very low range I feel it is prudent to gain as much information as possible before formulating a plan. I hope that this is what your school is doing. SUBJECT: Re:Speech therapy Date: 97-10-15 18:28:53 EST From: SunStar23 You have every right as a parent to be outraged at this intense level of incompetence! You have a lot of rights as a parent, and you should mention this at the meeting you call to discuss your child's program! Any basic level SLP should know what to do for a kid with a hearing impairment, it's really not that difficult to figure out. Let me know if i can help! Sunstar23 SUBJECT: Re:I need ideas.. Date: 97-10-15 18:31:02 EST From: SunStar23 Have you tried photographs of areas of the room and play choices? Even more concrete is a box of actual objects- one box for choices and one for done, even. Pictures are probably too abstract at this point anyway. Set up a routine if you can! Sunstar23 SUBJECT: Re:Receiving Services Date: 97-10-16 16:49:56 EST From: ACTDS We had our meeting, our child will be receiving services as Speech and Language Impaired. The recommendation as stated from the evaluation is as follows: developing strategies to facilitate language processing, language formation and vocabulary skills. What do this all mean I do not understand. I have another meeting to discuss therapy and how much therapy. Could someone give me some insight as to what the therapy would be given the recommendations. Also can the parent be involved in the development of goals for the therapy. What books or information can I retrieve on my own so I understand what therapy is. And finally, I would like to thank those of you who responded to my request. SUBJECT: artic strategies wanted Date: 97-10-16 19:57:37 EST From: GBHigdon I am trying to compile a booklet of tried and true artic strategies, especially to help with those difficult lateral lisps and vocalic /r/. I would appreciate ANY ideas for ANY sound. I would also be happy to share the compiled strategies with anyone who is interested. Please email me with any strategies you could donate or if you are interested in receiving it. Thank you very much in advance! Beth GBHigdon@aol.com SUBJECT: Re:Receiving Services Date: 97-10-17 00:14:36 EST From: Mars000210 Hello, your wrote: < Also can the parent be involved in the development of goals for the therapy. > Yes you can in fact you can develope goals and interventions with the team to help your child. First you have to understand what the exact problems your child is facing, so tommorrow call the school and ask to speak to the speical education teachers have her explain what each problem is in plain english. Ask her what kind of problem this will have at school. Such as does this mean my child will have problems with math, english etc. Ask is there a broader label that applies to the problems your child is having. Tell her you want to understand the catagory that the disability falls under so you can read more about it and be able to spot problems that need addresing at home and school. Go back to Ratatat's post follow that advice. It is really what you need to know. Don't get upset you will learn as you go, but you must learn. That means reading up about your childs particular LD's and learning the special education process. You need both if your child is too be sucessfull and he will. Just take one step at a time. Keep asking questions here. Take Care Barb SUBJECT: Re:auditory processing Date: 97-10-18 20:30:09 EST From: VCB44 I have a book called "Auditory Processes" by Pamela Gillet. It is just a little paperback, but is crammed full of information, even has a list of suggestion for the classroom. I think it is from Academic Therapy Publications. I recently loaned it to a friend of mine so I'm doing this from memory. SUBJECT: Re:PROMPT Date: 97-10-18 22:59:34 EST From: K for 5 Check out "Apraxia-Kids" home page (www.avenza.com/~apraxia/index.html). They have some nice info on Prompt within their "Speech-Language Topics" under "Speech Therapy" page. You can also e-mail Prompt at "Haywal@aol.com" and request them to send you info. They will send out a couple of brochures, etc, that explain their program, provide a listing of their services as well as training dates around the country, etc. Kerry SUBJECT: LSH position......... Date: 97-10-19 02:38:16 EST From: Beanie7783 I received an inquiry into my postfor a LSH position last month..I accidentlly erased it..will the person who e-mailed me try again?? I promise I'll stay away from the delete button! Beanie SUBJECT: Re:Receiving Services Date: 97-10-20 20:00:00 EST From: ACTDS My child has an assistant teacher going with him to his mainstream class. The assistant is instructed to write down the homework assignment for this student. I have visited the classroom and observed that the information is posted on the bulletin board. It becomes a problem when the assistant is absent and another assistant takes her place. I don't think the information is being carried over to the person covering for the absent assistant. I was considering asking the teacher for an outline of homework but I then realized that he is quite overwhelmed with a overcrowded classroom. I believe I need a better system of retrieving homework for my son. I would also like to note that his ability to copy items of the bulletin board is difficult for him. His writing is extremely immature which is noted in his IEP, and so I need some method that could fix this problem. Any ideas!!! SUBJECT: Re:Receiving Services Date: 97-10-20 23:00:51 EST From: Mars000210 Hello, you wrote: < I was considering asking the teacher for an outline of homework but I then realized that he is quite overwhelmed with a overcrowded classroom> Since your problem only occurrs when the regular assistant is not there. Why not a couple of phone numbers of othe students in the class to cover those days when the assitant doesn't copy the homework off the board. Another stratagie is to have the regular assistant get a list of the homework for you to be given on Friday the week before it is to be done. That way you would know ahead of time, if there are any changes they could then just send a note home with the change in assignment for that day. If you opt for this system an agenda would be a good thing to start using . All the homework listed by day and then changes could be added right on the same agenda. If I had one thing that I wish schools could have started earlier is the use of an agenda for all students in elementary school. Our middle school supplied them for the children and it really helps. If you think this won't help write a post again. Take Care Barb SUBJECT: Re:Receiving Services Date: 97-10-21 12:40:50 EST From: Peggy 620 I agree with Barb re: use of an agenda for homework. We use them starting in third grade in our K-8 school (cost is $5 per student). On days when the aide is not there, just ask the child who sits next to yours to please copy the homework for your child. We have done this when my fourth grader's aide has not been there and it is not a problem. An organized teacher can also give you the assignments for the entire week in advance if he/she wants to help. Finally, ALWAYS have the phone numbers of 2 good students who can be called to check on assignments or to explain unclear instructions. SUBJECT: Re:Receiving Services Date: 97-10-21 14:34:56 EST From: ACTDS Thank you Peggy and Mars, the advice is helpful. This will be two days the assistant has not been in. The teacher has made some changes to the assignment because of her absents. We do have an agenda book, but my son does not have the skills to jot down information of the bulletin board. So, I am needing someone to get the vocabulary to him and any other assignment so he can do his homework. I will try getting a student phone#. SUBJECT: Re:receiving services Date: 97-10-21 15:35:32 EST From: ShelleyHL How old is this child and how many different teachers does he/she have? I would suggest that there be a "assistant's sheet" which would describe the assistant's responsibilities to a substitute. In addition, isn't there a case manager of some type who would be aware of assistant's absences and assist in making sure kids don't get penalized for the absence of an adult? The regular teachers should be able to help out on those few occasions where an assistant is absent. I would hope that the teachers are fully aware of modifications and are not depending on a teaching assistant to fulfil all needs. I would hope that the assistant isn't absent very often. SUBJECT: Re:Ordering supplies Date: 97-10-21 22:06:46 EST From: BURSTEIND I am looking for anyone who might know of a toy catalog where a children's playhouse can be ordered. My school K-1 program can use something like a Fisher Price dollhouse that would hold up to abuse and use. Please e-mail me. Thank you, Denise bursteind SUBJECT: Re:Receiving Services Date: 97-10-21 22:53:01 EST From: Mars000210 Hello, you wrote: < This will be two days the assistant has not been in. > well you have the agenda and that means other children are using an agenda also / so that leaves out having another child as a note taker using NCR paper. So if I were in your shoes I would insist the teacher write the homework down and provide a copy of the spelling words. I know the teacher may be busy, but from my point of view your son needs this intervetion when the assistant isn't their to help your son. Take Care Barb SUBJECT: Receiving Services Date: 97-10-22 23:53:50 EST From: ACTDS Shelly and Mars I really appreciate your input. Keep it coming, I don't feel so alone when you respond. I visited the school today to be with my son during one class period. I have been doing this once a week for three week now. He is a 7th grader with 8 periods. Three of those periods are mainstreamed or inclusion with an assistant for each one ( as stated on the IEP). In one class in particular, where the assistant has been absent, the assistants have changed three times since the beginning of the school year. I talk to his SPED coordinator, who stated she is over-whelmed by the changes. I believe she is understaff, but I don't feel that is my problem. I am frustrated because I believe they are telling one thing and doing another. When I visit for this one class, an assistant is there. However when I am not there, my son tells me there is not assistant. In another class, where there should be an assistant, the coordinator told me the teacher felt it was not necessary (which I question because I thought all decisions or changes were an IEP team effort). We are getting a phone number from a student and I like the idea of an assistant sheet. A good friend told me that she had to train the assistant inorder to get the support her child needed. It sounded like a good idea. I am still planning on visiting the classroom, the teacher has welcomed me and asked me to return, but I do not want to take the place of the assistant. The teacher is excellent, he and I have talked extensively about the modifications in the classroom. I just want some consistancy for my son and the assistant be aware of what my son's needs are. Am I on the right track? SUBJECT: Re:Receiving Services Date: 97-10-23 07:13:56 EST From: Mars000210 Hello you wrote: < I just want some consistancy for my son and the assistant be aware of what my son's needs are. Am I on the right track? > Sounds like you need a system that the teachers can deal with as well. Maybe you should ask them what is easiest for all the teachers. would leaving his agenda in the office on a desk near the teachers mail boxes help. When stopping in to check their memo box they could just write down his homework for him. Then at the end of the day before his last period someone be assigned to give it to your son. Give them solutions tell them what you think will work or not work ask for their input and go from there. I think it is important that the assistant knows clearly what to do for your child. You know your child best, but keep it professional. I spend a great deal of my time doing what the school should be providing according to the IEP. I hedge on what is important vs. what makes my life easier vs. what is best for my kid. If it is a chioice between what is best/ or easiest for child and school I feel that I am the last in the chain. So yes this makes my life less easy,but I have a happy child and teachers who are willing to extend themselves on important issues. Take care Barb SUBJECT: Re:Receiving Services Date: 97-10-23 22:39:33 EST From: ACTDS Barb, I agree. I want to set up a small meeting with the coordinator and the assistant to identify the issues for my son. At the present, they have given him back another assistant, but have not notify me of why the new assistant. I can accept that. I have a meeting regarding his Speech and Language therapy and after I get that setting, I will then have more information to pass along to the assistant and coordinator. Maybe at the meeting with the Speech and Language therapist I could ask for suggestion for the assistants. Talking with you on the message board has been so helpful and thank you again. SUBJECT: Re:Receiving Services Date: 97-10-24 17:07:41 EST From: ShelleyHL it's wonderful that the teacher is concerned and helpful. Perhaps that teacher can help create the "assistant's assistant" (a helpful sheet for the assistant). Actually, that would be a good idea even for the permanent assistant. This should be reviewed at agreed upon intervals. I would imagine that the role of the assistant might fluctuate during the year, or for certain sections of the curriculum. A written roadmap would be good for all. It should include a schedule, teacher's names, a contact person (usually the case manager), and the essential (you can't live without them) modifications. If the assignment book is to be included, I would suggest a sample page showing how this should be written for this student. Keep the sheet basic and to the point. It should provide relief. Most substitutes don't like to flounder either. Good luck to you. SUBJECT: Nasal emissions Date: 97-10-24 17:11:27 EST From: ShelleyHL I have an unusual case. A preschooler (age 4) has nasal emission for the s and z only. He is unable to produce these sounds orally. Nasal air is all that comes out. He produces all other sounds correctly...not problems with velopharyngeal closure, except on the s and z. I did a cursury oral peripheral exam today. I did not notice anything unusual (like a cleft palate). When asked to say "ah" the velum clearly rose, closing off the nasal passage. I'm leaning toward asking the parents to take him to an ENT to see if there are any structural deals that I would not be able to detect. Any ideas??? ShelleyHL SUBJECT: Re:Nasal emissions Date: 97-10-24 18:10:05 EST From: Galiemla I've had two students with the same errors. After the ENT found no physical reason, I worked at having the girls whistle through their teeth. I know this sounds crazy but it worked. The tongue posturing is similar to 's' production. Without identifying the sound, the girls would 'play' with moving their tongue back. It was just a matter of tricking their oral mechanism into working correctly. Luckily, both girls had great auditory discrimin so that when they heard their production they could reproduce it correctly. Good luck! SUBJECT: Re:Nasal emissions Date: 97-10-25 19:19:51 EST From: LILMAX5267 You may also want to try using a SeeScape to reduce the child's nasal emission using this visual cue. I've found it helpful in the past. Maxine (an SLP) While I'm here, anyone from south of Boston going to the ASHA convention in town? Thought maybe it would be nice to carpool. SUBJECT: Re:Nasal emissions Date: 97-10-26 09:22:01 EST From: ShelleyHL I am inclined to send this kiddo to an ENT for a check to be sure that there are no physiological reasons for this lack of closure on the s, z. However, I also don't want to waste the parents money. Would you all agree that the ENT consult should take place before I begin work? He is able to repeat rapidly successive t sounds but when they begin to run together like an s he immediately loses that closure and the nasal emission is back. This child is 4 years old, in a preschool class, and will enter kindergarten next fall. SUBJECT: SAra Rosenfeld-Johnson Date: 97-10-26 09:38:11 EST From: MareCash Anyone out there who has not attended one of Saara's conferences should! I attended the first part of her treatment program this weekend in Albany Ny and it was terrific! Her ideas are useful in all settings and I can't wait to give them a try.Those of you with a background in Sensory Intergration deficits and treatment will see how it all comes together. Last week I attended a conference on Sensory Intergration adn now with the two therapies together, the light has turned on. It all makes so much sense! SUBJECT: Re:Nasal emissions Date: 97-10-26 13:22:27 EST From: Galiemla I would definitely suggest an ENT to the parents. I would be afraid of any possible ramifications if there was a physiological cause. So many people love to sue! SUBJECT: Re:Nasal emissions Date: 97-10-26 21:57:42 EST From: MLynne7923 Have you investigated the possibility of a submucous cleft palate. A possible beginning would check to see if there is a bifid uvula, or a high palatal arch. An ENT person would be helpful in r/o this consideration. Good luck! SUBJECT: Re:Nasal emissions Date: 97-10-26 22:08:09 EST From: Bre5 I am curious as to what an ENT can tell you that would help with speech therapy? My son was just sent to an ENT to check for the "velopharyngeal closure" and he had to have a wire with a light on the end pushed into his nose and down his throat, and then he had to say words. It wasn't much fun. They didn't find anything wrong, and the test alone cost $340, plus the doctor fee. SUBJECT: Re:Nasal emissions Date: 97-10-27 11:09:29 EST From: TAWhit Bre5: Actually - what the ENT tells you might mean that speech therapy will not help at all. If we didn't get things ruled out by ENTs, we would do therapy with some children endlessly because the problem is physical/physiologic and can not be corrected with therapy. Terrie SUBJECT: Re:Nasal emissions Date: 97-10-27 16:56:13 EST From: ShelleyHL Thank you all. I have also spoken with a number of my colleagues and they agree that an ENT would be a good idea, just to rule out physiological problems. I have thought about a submucous cleft. However, this child has closure on all sounds but the s and z. No nasal emissions on any other sounds...It seems to me that if there were a submucous cleft or the like, there would be hypernasality at least on other sounds. This is not the case. My cursury oral periph did not reveal a bifid uvula. Arching of the palate seemed high to me but my references are probably not accurate. Anyway, I'm going to continue seeing this child for a few weeks informally so that I have something substantial to send with the family to the ENT. SUBJECT: Re:Nasal emissions Date: 97-10-27 20:37:37 EST From: Willsons Shelley, I don't have anything new to add. Just wanted to share that I had similar, if not exact, concerns and feedback. I have a student who has very nasal speech. He is 6 and has had therapy since he was 4. There was nothing in his records to suggest the nasality had been addressed. I consulted with another Speech Therapist. She said a submucous cleft might be present. She did an oral exam with me, and we noted that his soft palate moves, but only a little. She suggested I refer him to the Cleft Palate Unit of a nearby University Health Center; the team includes a dentist, plastic surgeon, speech therapist, among others. We concluded that I need to know more about his physical status before I can continue with therapy with confidence that my techniques might make a positive difference. SUBJECT: Re:Nasal emissions Date: 97-10-27 21:30:06 EST From: MLynne7923 Is hearing within normal limits? Recently been checked? SUBJECT: Re:Nasal emissions Date: 97-10-27 21:36:57 EST From: MLynne7923 I'm sorry, I cut myself off. Happens a lot. But possibly with as much background info that you can collect will help you solve this mystery. These kinds of cases are a lot of fun to try to solve. Listen to me, I sound like Nancy Drew!. Good luck. SUBJECT: Re:Nasal emissions Date: 97-10-28 06:31:46 EST From: Willsons I wasn't sure if your suggestion was for me or Shelley, buy thank you for the input My student is scheduled for a full audiological exam. We also have looked at his medical records filed in the nurse's office to see if there is a history of ear infections. Maybe this comment belongs in the Nostalgia Folder, but its nice to hear from someone who knows who Nancy Drew is. I've reached a point in my life where I make certain references, and the kids respond with a blank stare . . . like the student I told, "You're really growing. You must be eating your Wheaties!:" The entire line of children just stared at me! :-) SUBJECT: Re:Nasal emissions Date: 97-10-28 17:33:52 EST From: ShelleyHL Just a clarification on my little guy...his general vocal quality is excellent. The only nasal emissions are on s and z. Very odd. I tried the whistling suggestion today. He loved it and had a little success. I'm going to do five minute mini sessions with him every day for a couple of weeks and see what happens. If I start to see an improvement or ease of oral production I'll feel a lot better. If not...off to the ENT for a check. SUBJECT: Apraxia Date: 97-10-28 18:09:13 EST From: JuneDay7 I have a 12 year old TMI student in the public schools who communicates mainly in single word utterances. He is almost unintelligible, and appears apraxic. His articulation is very inconsistent, and gets worse as syllables are added. Are there any programs you recommend for this student? Any suggestions? Thanks. SUBJECT: nonverbal learning disabil` Date: 97-10-28 19:15:19 EST From: Chawklit42 I am a speech path. working with a nonverbal child with corpus callosum agenesis - anyone work with these kids before? She is 2 year old - hypotonic, nonverbal-presents with visual problems, seizures and feeding problems...I would greatly appreciate any help. chawklit SUBJECT: Sara Rosenfeld-Johnson Date: 97-10-28 19:59:39 EST From: MareCash If the person who emailed me concerning Sara's conference in Albany would re-email me I would appreciate it.I mistakenly deleted your letter - before I could respond! SUBJECT: Re:Nasal emissions Date: 97-10-29 00:58:18 EST From: X52hmcx I have worked with more than one client with nasal prduction of /s/ and /z/. One child was a spanish speaker!! Very fun!! I had luck with trying to get the "buzzing sound" to go in a straw. It sounds crazy but it puts the focus on air coming out of the mouth. Both of the children I worked with were able to correct the errors, but they were older than four. The ENT consult would cover you if there is anything wrong, but my guess is that there isn't just from my experience. Let us know what happens!!AOL looking for a response SUBJECT: Re:Due Process-artic help Date: 97-11-01 09:20:07 EST From: MaryCT33 Mys suggestion: Don't think for a moment that they do not have to provide appropriate services for your child. If the school does not have the resources they are legally obligated to pay for them inside the district at another school, tutor or a private placement. If the scores are showing a severe disability and school won't own up tell them you do not agree with recommendations, document this in your meeting with school (the new law states if the dispute is not raised in what CT calls a PPT (Pupil, Placement Team - states use different terms) you may not be eligble for reimbursement on legal fees should you need to ever go to due process. You are also entitled to an outside evaluation at the public schools expense if you disagree with their testing and the school is legally obligated to consider the recommendations. You may just want to do this yourself and bring the person who does the testing to your PPT as an advocate. SUBJECT: Re:picture communication boa Date: 97-11-03 17:45:34 EST From: Girafe58 Thanks tvail I have those in my school. They are really good! SUBJECT: Sara Rosenfeld-Johnson Date: 97-11-05 23:51:24 EST From: Beanie7783 I am interested in any books/curr. from Sara...Is she giving any workshops on the west coast? Please e-mail if any any info...Thank you..Beanie7783 SUBJECT: Kinestetic methods Date: 97-11-06 23:48:13 EST From: Jmg628 Is anyone aware of any kenestetic (sp?) programs or methods to teach the comprehension of words, prepositions, antonyms and also to teach sequencing such as: day, week, month, year? My son learns best with visual and kinestetic (sp?) approaches, but our IEP team cannot come up with anything for these two areas where he has problems. Thanks. Randee SUBJECT: S/L Message Boards Date: 97-11-08 19:46:08 EST From: Roskzalex I can no longer gain access to these boards. I love to read them every day. GenK told me that there is no Special Education Forum. I have so much to look up about so many subjects! Does anybody know what is going on? -Robyn SUBJECT: Re:S/L Message Boards Date: 97-11-09 08:08:27 EST From: Ratatat Well, GenK is mistaken about the Special Education Forum. You are in it, and posting! AOL is reorganizing it's "super structure" and have scrambled many links to areas. The Special Education Forum is the single most active set of MBs in the section of AOL where we "reside." There is no worry about AOL taking us down. What exactly are you looking for and not finding? Maybe I can help you. Ratatat, Host - Special Education Forum SUBJECT: Re:S/L Message Boards Date: 97-11-09 11:46:11 EST From: ShelleyHL Ratatat, The reorganization of the message board affected the Gifted Forum (in a big way). I believe GenK was one of the folks who looked after that forum. The Gifted Forum (formerly keyword:gifted), is no longer in existence as it was. It is now a message board which is part of Moms Online. It is not nearly as comprehensive, easy to gain access to, or find. Perhaps this is what the previous postee was referring to. ShelleyHL SUBJECT: Re:S/L Message Boards Date: 97-11-09 23:09:23 EST From: Val0706 Ratatat, As you probably know, the first screen when you come into the Special Ed boards has a message very similar to the one on the Giftedness Forum (as of 10/15/97, you will find ... at the new Keyword Families). After the "After 10/15 go to MomsOnLine" had been there for awhile at the Giftedness Forum, all the categories on the board disappeared -- as you know! So, since you're the host here you know more than the rest of us, but is this "as of 10/15" message less ominous than the other one? It's a good thing I'm not paranoid, or I'd take this personally -- after all, the boards I read most faithfully (i.e., daily) have been giftedness and special ed. Are they wiping out *everyone's* favorite board or is it just me??? Valerie SUBJECT: Earobics Date: 97-11-10 18:23:15 EST From: Barlynn Has anyone used the Earobics program? I visited the FAQ section at their website and read that once you plug in a child's name (to track progress), it cannot be changed. Does this mean that the CD ROM has to be replaced for every 25 children (or 2 children if the home program is used)? Is it possible to use the program and not plug in a child's name? I E-mailed these questions to cogcon.com, but my mail was returned. For some reason they were unable to answer E-mail. I would appreciate any information anyone has. Thanks!!!!!!! SUBJECT: Re:S/L Message Boards Date: 97-11-11 15:06:48 EST From: ShelleyHL Actually, I have not seen the message you describe (as of 10-15, etc) when I sign on to this set of message boards. I come through Key word: teachers' lounge. Would that make a difference? Is there a better board to post these questions than the speech/language board? I too am curious about that Gifted Forum. It no longer exists. SUBJECT: New strategies stuttering? Date: 97-11-12 17:15:46 EST From: CATTLUV I have been providing speech therapy to a 20 year old bilingual High School student who has been a severe stutterer. He is having difficulty with consistent use of technique, self-monitoring and carry-over. We have utilized the following techniques as fluency shaping devices during tasks of increasing cognitive-linguistic complexity: easy onset/gentle voice initiation, continuous phonation/light contacts and airflow. We have incorporated visual and auditory feedback through use of the "speechmaster" and a portable DAF device. We have included voluntary stuttering, block corrections, audio and videotaping to increase self-awareness of stuttering. We have worked on psychological factors via roleplaying visualization, affirmation, relaxation, counseling, preparatory mental sets, identifying stress factors, journals, time contracts,ets.. There are a number of other approaches I will be using to maximize his consistent and correct use of technique. However, since he graduates in June, I would like to provide him with the most time-effective strategies available. If anyone has a new strategy/technological advance that they've found to be particularly effective. please let me know. Also does anyone know of the new Schwartz devices for feedback and carry-over? Please e-mail me at emkane@suffolk.lib.ny.us. SUBJECT: Re:Sara Rosenfeld-Johnson Date: 97-11-14 01:10:25 EST From: OromotorSP You can always check my website for upcoming conferences: members.aol.com/oromotorsp/index.htm. Thanks for your interest in my work.... Sara Rosenfeld-Johnson SUBJECT: Asha Date: 97-11-17 20:40:21 EST From: ShelleyHL So...will any of you be at the ASHA conference in Boston? SUBJECT: Re:Asha Date: 97-11-18 15:25:36 EST From: WVV Hiker Yes! Several of us from the Nashua NH school sytem are going :) SUBJECT: articulation: /s/ and /z/ Date: 97-11-24 19:20:01 EST From: DeniseColo I have just started working with a 3rd grader who has trouble producing /s/ and /z/. She says them on inhalation. These are the only sounds she does that on. I have tried getting her to say /s/ in isolation on exhalation, but have not had any success. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, DeniseColo SUBJECT: Re:articulation: /s/ and /z/ Date: 97-11-24 20:34:09 EST From: ShelleyHL Try whistling between the teeth. You could also have her do the "t" sound rapidly in succession.